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View Poll Results: Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement?
Yes 106 66.67%
No 53 33.33%
Voters: 159. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-19-2014, 11:39 PM
 
Location: Shawinigan
144 posts, read 100,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Yeah they ain't so bad but not to be dismissed either... One thing is for sure, there is certainly a dichotemy between a people and a government.
THAT is important!!!, unfortunately gov often instrumentalizes people...we must always have that in mind
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Old 12-19-2014, 11:44 PM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,006,335 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Oh really - is it hyperbole or the heart of an approach that is to simply get involved in one way or another in affairs where one is not exactly asked to be a part of - in other words, country X - yer welcome to the opinion, the 'influence' not so much... In that vein is Latin America that different or that terrible of a comparison....
Just my opinion, but I think it is safe to say Quebec's relationship with the US would be similar to Canada's relationship with the US, not the US relationship with Bolivia, Panama, etc.. (Insert year)

So yes, I do think the comparison is off. Unless you are seeing something I am not.
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Old 12-20-2014, 12:28 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,135,736 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
Just my opinion, but I think it is safe to say Quebec's relationship with the US would be similar to Canada's relationship with the US, not the US relationship with Bolivia, Panama, etc.. (Insert year)

So yes, I do think the comparison is off. Unless you are seeing something I am not.
I'm not talking about direct comparative relationships.. I was broaching the subject of a relationship that some seem to hold in such high esteem without necessarily factoring in other less than rosy aspects. This is something Quebec has not directly had to deal with in the past as its own entity that it would need to deal with post separation.. It isn't to say the comparison would be exactly alike other countries but in one way or the other pretty much every nation within the U.S sphere of influence has felt the impact including many in Latin America.... You're the one trying to draw direct comparisons whereby I was always being general about it. Otherwise I don't know how else I can convey my message to you.

Last edited by fusion2; 12-20-2014 at 12:38 AM..
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Old 12-20-2014, 01:17 AM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,006,335 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I'm not talking about direct comparative relationships.. I was broaching the subject of a relationship that some seem to hold in such high esteem without necessarily factoring in other less than rosy aspects. This is something Quebec has not directly had to deal with in the past as its own entity that it would need to deal with post separation.. It isn't to say the comparison would be exactly alike other countries but in one way or the other pretty much every nation within the U.S sphere of influence has felt the impact including many in Latin America.... You're the one trying to draw direct comparisons whereby I was always being general about it. Otherwise I don't know how else I can convey my message to you.
If you are speaking generally, then absolutely I agree that Quebec will have to figure out the direction they want to take their relationship with the US, along with other emerging superpowers across the globe. There will be a level of give and take and many times that take from the US is not pleasant. You specifically mentioned Latin America, so I was curious as to why you would use such an exaggerated comparison or a region of the world you obviously do not have much familiarity with.

As you mentioned the US has a very strong influence across the globe, so there are countless other examples you could have used that would have been a more comfortable fit. Or were you using dramatics for added effect?
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Old 12-20-2014, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,135,736 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
If you are speaking generally, then absolutely I agree that Quebec will have to figure out the direction they want to take their relationship with the US, along with other emerging superpowers across the globe. There will be a level of give and take and many times that take from the US is not pleasant. You specifically mentioned Latin America, so I was curious as to why you would use such an exaggerated comparison or a region of the world you obviously do not have much familiarity with.

As you mentioned the US has a very strong influence across the globe, so there are countless other examples you could have used that would have been a more comfortable fit. Or were you using dramatics for added effect?
I was always only speaking generally, you were the one who wanted to get into the specifics that nobody can really get into... Also love how you think you get your little jabs in - like the fact I 'obviously' do not have much familiarity with a certain topic as opposed to you who apparently knows all the ins and outs of geopolitics vis a vie the U.S relationship with Latin America or even Canada for that matter.. I'm sure you are a foremost expert on the subject - am I talking to a CIA director hear - Henry Kissinger, LBP's Spirit? Maybe you should open up the topic in the Americas section and lecture Latin America on your expertise on the matter.. I'm wondering what some response will be from those countries' inhabitants....

I mentioned Latin America as I mentioned Canada because we pretty much constitute the hemisphere except for some other smaller Carribean and the U.S itself......

Aside from that what else you said is what i've been saying all along.....
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Old 12-20-2014, 09:11 AM
 
342 posts, read 395,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
As you mentioned the US has a very strong influence across the globe, so there are countless other examples you could have used that would have been a more comfortable fit. Or were you using dramatics for added effect?
Considering that nearly every post he has made in the thread has been a dramatic rant..I would guess the latter. Telling an independent Quebec that they would be treated like Switzerland or New Zealand just isnt as dramatic as using Cuba.

By the way fusion2 it's called "vis-a-vis" for future reference..lol.
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Old 12-20-2014, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,135,736 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeMike91 View Post
Considering that nearly every post he has made in the thread has been a dramatic rant..I would guess the latter. Telling an independent Quebec that they would be treated like Switzerland or New Zealand just isnt as dramatic as using Cuba.

By the way fusion2 it's called "vis-a-vis" for future reference..lol.
Thanks for the correction.. I guess it would be vis--vis lol....

Anyway, you can conclude I am making dramatic rants all you want.. The business of seceding from a country is no small one - it isn't a University Essay or reading a Spanish language book and thinking you're an expert. It involves the lives of tens of millions of people (Not those living in D.C, Doha, somewhere Europe etc) who would have inhabited its borders and involves a plethora of issues that would need to be hammered out for a long time to come..... That's alot of drama!! This is why I think for many who reside in Canada, this is no easy affair and isn't so black and white.

I made no reference to the fact that Quebec would be treated like Cuba - what i've said is that the U.S does exert geopolitical influence on many countries (and yes - even in its own hemiphere shocking lol) and yes I think how it treats each is different but at the heart of the matter it is the same in that it like to get involved in things even when it isn't so much welcomed to. Quebec has not had to deal with that Elephant and there would be challenges as pretty much EVERY country in our hemisphere has had to deal with in varying degrees..Anything else is just naive.. We can use Switzerland or New Zealand as examples, but they do not border it... Which is why I said come back to the ROC a few decades afterwards and lets examine that rosy outlook on the topic.. I think it would be a very interesting discussion.

Is it a dealbreaker for secession - no but it is one of many many challenges that need to be examined for a group of people who want to change the dynamic that is Canada.

Last edited by fusion2; 12-20-2014 at 09:42 AM..
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Old 12-20-2014, 10:07 AM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,006,335 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I was always only speaking generally, you were the one who wanted to get into the specifics that nobody can really get into... Also love how you think you get your little jabs in - like the fact I 'obviously' do not have much familiarity with a certain topic as opposed to you who apparently knows all the ins and outs of geopolitics vis a vie the U.S relationship with Latin America or even Canada for that matter.. I'm sure you are a foremost expert on the subject - am I talking to a CIA director hear - Henry Kissinger, LBP's Spirit? Maybe you should open up the topic in the Americas section and lecture Latin America on your expertise on the matter.. I'm wondering what some response will be from those countries' inhabitants....

I mentioned Latin America as I mentioned Canada because we pretty much constitute the hemisphere except for some other smaller Carribean and the U.S itself......

Aside from that what else you said is what i've been saying all along.....
I will send you a PM explaining why Latin American culture is something I am very familiar with. No need to steer this any more OT.

Since you were speaking generally, then using specific comparisons does nothing to add to your argument, it only weakens it. Especially when the comparisons share no similarity culturally, economically, politically nor geographically.

Otherwise, lets move back to the positive aspects of this thread. It has been an educational one to follow.
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Old 12-20-2014, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Shawinigan
144 posts, read 100,157 times
Reputation: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
If you are speaking generally, then absolutely I agree that Quebec will have to figure out the direction they want to take their relationship with the US, along with other emerging superpowers across the globe. There will be a level of give and take and many times that take from the US is not pleasant. You specifically mentioned Latin America, so I was curious as to why you would use such an exaggerated comparison or a region of the world you obviously do not have much familiarity with.

As you mentioned the US has a very strong influence across the globe, so there are countless other examples you could have used that would have been a more comfortable fit. Or were you using dramatics for added effect?
I agree with you on that and I don't want to minimize fusion's litteracy here, but in the ROC culture, fearful feeling towards quebec's independance are well anchored and I believe it blurs the truth on this matter IMHO. Medias and politicians have contributed significantly to that.

Also I've heard so many, many time "what does Qc want that they don't have!?", which tells that they are under the impression that Qc have control over pretty much everything, or at least every things that really matters. You would never ever ear such argument in Qc because quebecers know that have nothing to say in plenty of 'national sensitive matters'.

If you want to see what a Canadian flag looks like, go to Toronto, you will see be biggest ones...at least go anywhere but in Quebec, why's that? I'm happy that the ROC feels that way and I feel pride for them, but in Quebec, if you compare, there are none..and ironically they were both made by french quebecers, we are weird, aren't we?! Quebec flag: 1948 and Canadian flag 1964 ( not easily adopted in favour of the Union jack )

I am one of those Quebecers that have strong friendship feelings towards canadians (not necessarly politicians , but just don't feel it's my country, not because of hate or because we are any better, or capable but because, we need to be and we need to assume our selves. In our daily lives, we are way too disconnected because of the language barrer to fell attached to the same country.

I don't see why becoming a country while maintaining strong relationship would be bad for any of us. Quebec is not France and ROC is not England abviously, but how many wars thoses two countries when through? There are two seperate country, I tell me if I am wrong, the friendship between France and England is quite good now, or at least way better than if they would be in the same country at least well I think qc and canada would develop a much more genuine if they would talking to each others nation to nation

Last edited by Guytar1220; 12-20-2014 at 01:31 PM..
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Old 12-20-2014, 01:34 PM
 
342 posts, read 395,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guytar1220 View Post
I agree with you on that and I don't want to minimize fusion's litteracy here, but in the ROC culture, fearful feeling towards quebec's independance are well anchored and I believe it blurs the truth on this matter IMHO. Medias and politicians have contributed significantly to that.

Also I've heard so many, many time "what does Qc want that they don't have!?" which tells that they are under the impression that Qc have control over pretty much everything, or at least every things that really matters. You would never ever ear such argument in Qc because quebecers know that have nothing to say in plenty of 'national sensitive matters'.

If you want to see what a Canadian flag looks like, go to Toronto, you will see be biggest ones...at least go anywhere but in Quebec, why's that? I'm happy that the ROC feels that way and I feel pride for them, but in Quebec, if you compare, there are none..and ironically they were both made by french quebecers, we are weird, aren't we?! Quebec flag: 1948 and Canadian flag 1964 ( not easily adopted in favour of the Union jack )

I am one of those Quebecers that have strong friendship feelings towards canadians (not necessarly politicians , but just don't feel it's my country, not because of hate or because we are any better, or capable but because, we need to be and we need to assume our selves. In our daily lives, we are way too disconnected because of the language barrer to fell attached to the same country.

I don't see why becoming a country while maintaining strong relationship would be bad for any of us. Quebec is not France and ROC is not England abviously, but how many wars thoses two countries when through? There are two seperate country, I tell me if I am wrong, the friendship between France and England is quite good now, or at least way better than if they would be in the same country at least
Good posts Guytar, I am enjoying reading them.
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