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View Poll Results: Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement?
Yes 106 66.67%
No 53 33.33%
Voters: 159. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-07-2014, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,262,176 times
Reputation: 2168

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Actually i'd love to be able to speak French and I don't that is true but that isn't to say that I don't respect the fact that Canada has two official language and I hold zero against anyone in Canada who speaks just French. I've spent more time in Quebec than any other Province except my own, had more lovers from Quebec than any other province by far and have more friends from Quebec than any other province by far.. I can't live their because my home, work and family is in Toronto.. For the same reason I can't live in Montreal I can't live in Vancouver or Halifax either.. I don't hold it against anyone in Quebec that they can't move around the country either - Quebec is their home and I understand that.. It also doesn't mean that just because I don't speak French - doesn't mean I don't have ties to Quebec and Quebecers or that I don't respect their language and culture - I do both personally and professionally - I work with a TON of Quebecers from Air Canada and they are certainly good and open minded people as a whole and very much interconnected with Toronto.. I actually love the culture and love the province but a languages guy - i'm not... Please - don't presume to think that you know what is in my heart or the hearts of Canadians as a whole!

Great you speak the language but ultimately you don't live in Canada, you are a foreigner and you have no desire to move to Quebec and live in Quebec and fight the fight so to speak.. I'd have more respect for your position, language or not if you simply lived in Quebec and show real dedication to its future by supporting it either within or outside of Canada .. Instead you want to move to Honululu.. Seriously dude lol..

I never questioned the legitamacy of the movement at any time and I'm happy we live in a country where this movement can exist without being squashed by gunfire! Having said all that, it is a decision for the people of Quebec to ultimately make - not foreigners. You're free to have your views but please don't speak on behalf of Canadians and don't speak on behalf of Quebecers - they will decide their own future!

Come to speak of it - I think if there is one collective message the world would have for the U.S and in particular the U.S government is to STAY OUT of other nations affairs!
Nice, a few insults that conclude with a random line about US foreign policy.
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Old 12-07-2014, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Canada
4,698 posts, read 8,486,989 times
Reputation: 4880
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post
But this said, BIMBAM, this attitude of yours is one of the main concerns I have about Canada. Instead of really trying to understand how francophones in Quebec view this country and how this lead to the birth of an independence movement, you just dismiss everything as exclusionary nationalism as per your post on page 1, and just assert that francophones should be perfectly happy with Canada as it is.
You know, it's a mistake to claim that I don't try and understand the Francophone perspective simply because I disagree with separatism. I support bill 101, and things like Quebec's current control over immigration. I think they're exactly what's needed to build a Canada that also respects the aspirations of Quebec. I say it's exclusionary because it is, I am from Quebec and I have spent a lifetime soaking up this issue and coming to understand it from multiple angles. I understand French Canadian culture and history perfectly well, and have been educated in that history in French, in Quebec. I am in fact not unsympathetic, but I simply disagree that separatism is the future Quebec should embrace.
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Old 12-07-2014, 11:35 AM
 
18,265 posts, read 10,366,114 times
Reputation: 13321
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Nice, a few insults that conclude with a random line about US foreign policy.
"Let me know when you decide to live among your countrymen and learn their language and culture, then we cn talk about having an objective view."


And just how in the heck would you describe that line in your post?

Haaar! All this from someone who would love to live in Honolulu but probably hasn't considered the oxymoronic nature of berating all Canadians in the ROC while not shiving-a-git about just how Hawaii came to be part of America. It wasn't pretty.

The Struggle For Hawaiian Sovereignty - Introduction | Cultural Survival

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/298.html

http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/dis...ID=3&psid=4050

I suppose though, you will embrace their culture, learn their language and join their underground movement for independence; given that you are so endowed with a sense of compassion for the conquered!
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Old 12-07-2014, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,262,176 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
"Let me know when you decide to live among your countrymen and learn their language and culture, then we cn talk about having an objective view."


And just how in the heck would you describe that line in your post?

Haaar! All this from someone who would love to live in Honolulu but probably hasn't considered the oxymoronic nature of berating all Canadians in the ROC while not shiving-a-git about just how Hawaii came to be part of America. It wasn't pretty.

The Struggle For Hawaiian Sovereignty - Introduction | Cultural Survival

Native Hawaiian workers mistreated on sugar plantations - Timeline - Native Voices

Digital History

I suppose though, you will embrace their culture, learn their language and join their underground movement for independence; given that you are so endowed with a sense of compassion for the conquered!
I'm not sure what you are getting at. In my opinion the Hawaiian sovereignty movement is legitimate, just like the movement of any conquered native people including Quebec. However, at the end of the day it is a fringe movement like those pushing for the independence of western Canada, while Quebec is a mainstream movement that defines Quebec and (Canadian) politics. Also dont know where you guys got the idea that I want to move to Hawaii from.

It really is unfortunate that we aren't able to have a mature discussion on the issue of Quebecois independence. It seems that you feel insulted, and this wasn't my intention. Hopefully we can move forward and have a rational discussion.
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Old 12-07-2014, 12:51 PM
 
1,316 posts, read 2,032,062 times
Reputation: 1132
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Nice, a few insults that conclude with a random line about US foreign policy.
That's sadly all too common around these parts, hobbesdj. Some posters don't attack ideas, but they do take care to attack the people who dare to utter them and then deflect with a non sequitur. Don't take it personally.

Back to the topic at hand, my feeling is that the root of the problem might actually lie in the collapse of what has been called the Laurentian Consensus. Essentially, Ontario-based political elites were for a very long time forever placating Quebec, even to the point of picking the leaders of federal parties from that province in the hopes of improving both their marketability there and their odds of getting elected with a majority by winning seats in Quebec. Quebec, and its accommodation, was the key to winning power and to taking Ottawa. This was being done when it was plain and obvious for all to see that Ontario and Quebec are culturally, spiritually, and historically two very different creatures. It's like Ontario power brokers wanted to defy the laws of gravity or something.

As an aside, I grew up in a province which has, over the years, had a very fractious relationship with Quebec. Do you know what, though? I've found that pur laine Quebecers are more like the denizens of my native province than they are the many Ontarians whom I know. For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not trying to suggest that Ontarians are inherently bad, deficient, or dysfunctional; it's just that many of them are just very different in outlook, attitude, and orientation from most Quebecers. It's something that the real Captain Canadas don't see, don't believe, or don't want to admit, though, for it strikes at the very heart of one of the central beliefs around which their vision of Canada is constructed: that it's two nations -- English Canada and French Canada -- united together under the cover of the Maple Leaf flag. That's a bit of a fiction, though, for its two biggest players aren't really all that united and they don't really have that all that much in common with one another.

Last edited by maclock; 12-07-2014 at 01:11 PM..
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Old 12-07-2014, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,133,432 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Nice, a few insults that conclude with a random line about US foreign policy.
I'm not insulting you - this is how I feel about the situation.. I honestly don't think you care about Canada!

As for U.S F.P - your personal views seem to be in line with some of your own governments approach in dealing with other nations - crossing the line..
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Old 12-07-2014, 01:16 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,133,432 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by maclock View Post
That's sadly all too common around these parts, hobbesdj. Some posters don't attack ideas, but they do take care to attack the people who dare to utter them and then deflect with a non sequitur. Don't take it personally.

Back to the topic at hand, my feeling is that the root of the problem might actually lie in the collapse of what has been called the Laurentian Consensus. Essentially, Ontario-based political elites were for a very long time forever placating Quebec, even to the point of picking the leaders of federal parties from that province in the hopes of improving both their marketability there and their odds of getting elected with a majority by winning seats in Quebec. Quebec, and its accommodation, was the key to winning power and to taking Ottawa. This was being done when it was plain and obvious for all to see that Ontario and Quebec are culturally, spiritually, and historically two very different creatures. It's like Ontario power brokers wanted to defy the laws of gravity or something.

As an aside, I grew up in a province which has, over the years, had a very fractious relationship with Quebec. Do you know what, though? I've found that pur laine Quebecers are more like the denizens of my native province than they are the many Ontarians whom I know. For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not trying to suggest that Ontarians are inherently bad, deficient, or dysfunctional; it's just that many of them are just very different in outlook, attitude, and orientation from most Quebecers. It's something that the real Captain Canadas don't see, don't believe, or don't want to admit, though, for it strikes at the very heart of one of the central beliefs around which their vision of Canada is constructed: that it's two nations -- English Canada and French Canada -- united together under the cover of the Maple Leaf flag. That's a bit of a fiction, though, for its two biggest players aren't really all that united and they don't really have that all that much in common with one another.
I think that it is far more productive when citizens of the nation work out issues as opposed to people from outside the country who have no vested interest or skin in the game getting involved. Would you feel comfortable with a foreigner determining the fate of our nation? I sure as well would not want that! I think most Canadians would agree with me that this is an internal matter that should be dealt with internally.. If Quebec wants to chart their own course than they should make the decision to do that - that has not yet happened and recent history supports that they want to work within a United Canada.. I love how people like to generalize how the 'Rest of Canada' feels about things yet the poster in question was not brought to account for grossly generalizing how the 'rest of us' feel about our own country. There are also that also that only fixate on divisive elements as opposed to united elements.

Having said all that - if you feel that Quebec should chart its own course as a Canadian and want to support that goal - than by all means I respect your passion in the matter.. I for one want to look forward and not be anchored by the past and it is my sincere hope that Canada continues on a strong united front but if that is not to be i can accept that - as long as the direction we take is the one that is chosen from elements from within. I know i have done my part as a citizen to build positive relations with every Canadian I deal with both on the personal and professional front.

Last edited by fusion2; 12-07-2014 at 01:28 PM..
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Old 12-07-2014, 01:22 PM
 
1,316 posts, read 2,032,062 times
Reputation: 1132
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I think that it is far more productive when citizens of the nation work out issues as opposed to people from outside the country who have no vested interest or skin in the game. Would you feel comfortable with a foreigner determining the fate of our nation? I sure as well would not want that! I think most Canadians would agree with me that this is an internal matter.. If Quebec wants to chart their own course than they should make the decision to do that - that has not yet happened and recent history supports that they want to work within a United Canada.. I love how people like to generalize how the 'Rest of Canada' feels about things.
It seems to me that you're being far too dramatic. You appear to be reacting emotionally about this issue and that seems to be clouding your objectivity a little bit. I don't mean to sound harsh or to be provocative; I'm just trying to tell you what I perceive here on this thread.
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Old 12-07-2014, 01:31 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,133,432 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by maclock View Post
It seems to me that you're being far too dramatic. You appear to be reacting emotionally about this issue and that seems to be clouding your objectivity a little bit. I don't mean to sound harsh or to be provocative; I'm just trying to tell you what I perceive here on this thread.
Well - I think having a passionate stance about the matter and proclaiming my love and support for all of Canada including Quebec is EXACTLY what we need as a nation to come together! - lets chart a new course! On the flip side, we can just allow painful aspects and mistakes of our past to continually haunt us and be anchored by it... Sorry that isn't my style..
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Old 12-07-2014, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,133,432 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Also dont know where you guys got the idea that I want to move to Hawaii from.
.
Australia or Canada?

I quote

"Because I said I prefer not to live in Canadian weather. The weather in Maryland is much warmer than anywhere in Canada. In fact, Maryland felt practically tropical coming here after Quebec. I didnt say anything about trying to get away from borderline humid subtropical/hot summer continental weather. If I did move for weather I would bypass San Diego and go straight for Honolulu - it's crossed my mind many times"
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