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View Poll Results: Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement?
Yes 106 66.67%
No 53 33.33%
Voters: 159. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-11-2015, 12:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
As i've stated, I think the "Anti Americanism" is laregly overplayed and has morphed into something that is not a part of our collective response to Americana.. Actually, if anything I can think of many, many other nations around the world that display Anti Americanism rather than Canadians.. I have to agree with the more measured and balanced posters in here who don't associate everything about us as automatically anti american - its silly.. We can speak about differences without necessarily being boosters as well... Some boosterism is actually a good thing if it is rooted an approach that is better for the common good.. I mean, should we not 'boost' for example that it is a better lifestyle to not smoke, be overweight and to treat others with respect as opposed to boosting a lifestyle of smoking, over eating and being rude to others.

Again, I invite you to go back to what I originally quoted in red - it had nothing to do with comments on anti americanism in the Canadian context - it was the part about Anglo Canadians having this view that we have eliminated bigotry, poverty and what has plagued humanity for history - do we really and objectively feel this way - no but we have done things to make things better for many our citizens in terms of social programs, healthcare etc - these things have zero to do with Anti Americanism or dismissing that nations accomplishments, they have to do with Canadian values so to cherish these things isn't boosterism at all.. I don't think any Anglo Canadian would contend that Canada has eliminated racism, sexism, homopobia, poverty or bigotry..
You really aren't getting this, are you? Let me help you again. I've already explained why I support Migratory Chicken's views more than I do yours on this occasion, including the reflexively anti-American bit which he raises (although I don't necessarily link that particular phenomenon to any kind of inferiority complex). It isn't all about you, you know. Feel free to go back and read what I've already offered again if you need to do so.

Anti-American sentiment is central to many a Canadian's identity in my opinion. I'd suggest that there are four fictions to which Canadians across the land often appeal when they think of Canada:
  1. hospitals -- Medicare, that is: Canada's publicly-funded universal health insurance system;
  2. hockey -- "our game";
  3. the RCMP -- the Mountie in his/her Red Serge, atop his/her steed, keeping the country safe for one and all; and
  4. an irrational hatred of all things American.
Question them at your peril. (Some might put the CBC on such a list, but it has a bit more of a niche appeal in my experience. And for some insane reason, people have started to link Tim Horton's, that pedestrian chain of coffee shops, with the Canadian identity, but I expect that particular association will pass with the effluxion of time.)
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Old 02-11-2015, 04:10 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post

I don't see this as being prevaling Anglo Canadian sentiment and yes - I've challenged the assertion.. I think its quite the leap to be honest Acajack.. As I recall, you yourself stated or at least in some way made a general statement that the gap between rich and poor is less pronounced in Canada vs the U.S and that in general there is more equality in terms of wealth distribution.. Is this something that is brash and a requirement to differentiate or is it simply something that is true?

.
That's kinda my point. This is a perfect example of how Canadians think Canada is more successful a country. I believe that many Canadians have felt this about Canada since about the 1970s, but it's only started to come out recently as a type of smugness or cocksureness.

My father and some of my uncles who pay attention to such things tell me that in the 50s and into the first part of the 60s there was definitely a sentiment on the part of many that Canada was kind of a loser place and the States was the place to be.

Then starting in the late 60s Canada started to get a bit of a spring in its step, and the U.S. started to have more problems (or at least more visible problems due to live TV news) like race riots, decline of cities, failed military forays abroad, etc.

Canadians started comparing more frequently and found they had it pretty good.

It started off a subtle pride but lately it's become less subtle.

Anyway, just my two cents.
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Old 02-11-2015, 04:45 AM
 
261 posts, read 202,940 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I thought it was pretty common knowledge that Quebec was looser with respect to such things, and that the U.S. (and by extension the rest of Canada, at least to some degree) wasn't so loose. At least not when compared to Quebec and some other places.

I mean...

Super Bowl XXXVIII halftime show controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But that's quite different, because while the nudity in Kirikou et la sorcière is entirely non-sexual in character, here there was a desire by the protagonists of this event (despite their denials) to use sex in order to shock people. And even then I'd wager that the vast majority of viewers weren't all that shocked. They may have thought it was inappropriate, they may have found pitiful Jackson's and Timberlake's refusal to even acknowledge this was intentional, but only a small minority was offended enough to complain. And many of those are also probably the same people who'd manage to sexualise the nudity in Kirikou (and complain about it).

These people certainly exist in Quebec as well. Remember, you only need a loud minority. So if Quebec is looser about portrayals of nudity in public discourse, we may wonder why that is. To me Quebec seems to have rather North American reflexes, if not in regard to non-sexual nudity, at least in regard to using sex appeal as argument. Studying in a francophone Quebec university, I've seen posted on billboards beer ads (which as we know typically feature girls in bikinis) that a student had stuck one of these stickers reading "Grosse pub sexiste!" on them. This, to me, is very North American. The politically correct idea that using sex appeal to attract or sell stuff is objectifying, "sexist", and harmful to women. And it's quite common in Quebec, which as we should remember is a quite feministic society, possibly moreso than other North American societies.
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Old 02-11-2015, 04:57 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post
But that's quite different, because while the nudity in Kirikou et la sorcière is entirely non-sexual in character, here there was a desire by the protagonists of this event (despite their denials) to use sex in order to shock people. And even then I'd wager that the vast majority of viewers weren't all that shocked. They may have thought it was inappropriate, they may have found pitiful Jackson's and Timberlake's refusal to even acknowledge this was intentional, but only a small minority was offended enough to complain. And many of those are also probably the same people who'd manage to sexualise the nudity in Kirikou (and complain about it).

These people certainly exist in Quebec as well. Remember, you only need a loud minority. So if Quebec is looser about portrayals of nudity in public discourse, we may wonder why that is. To me Quebec seems to have rather North American reflexes, if not in regard to non-sexual nudity, at least in regard to using sex appeal as argument. Studying in a francophone Quebec university, I've seen posted on billboards beer ads (which as we know typically feature girls in bikinis) that a student had stuck one of these stickers reading "Grosse pub sexiste!" on them. This, to me, is very North American. The politically correct idea that using sex appeal to attract or sell stuff is objectifying, "sexist", and harmful to women. And it's quite common in Quebec, which as we should remember is a quite feministic society, possibly moreso than other North American societies.
I don't know what to label Quebec when it comes to such things, other than to say that it's very obviously different from Anglo North America. This doesn't necessarily make it exactly like France or Scandinavia, but it's certainly not a carbon-copy of the rest of our continent either.

Something like Jackson-Timberlake would have sparked very little controversy here I would say.

And I might even add that, if as you say (correctly) it was a deliberate attempt to provoke with sex, no one would have even thought of doing that in Quebec, because they already know it would fall flat.
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Old 02-11-2015, 07:09 AM
 
261 posts, read 202,940 times
Reputation: 205
fusion2, I'm sure it's true that Canadians, just like any other people, are not all that interested in debating which country is the best one and why; they just want a good life for themselves and their families. But I'll reiterate something I said earlier:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post
But just imagine how this claim sounds to someone from the outside, for example, to a francophone Quebecer who lives in a society where we're constantly ripping our shirts off stressing over whether we're racist or not? Where (especially if we're the slightest bit nationalist) we need to ask ourselves whether we were also thinking of anglophones and ethnic minorities every time we talked about "nous"? It sounds like English Canadians just get to claim their greatness without doing any effort, while we francophones in Quebec need to constantly keep watch upon ourselves in order to stop us from falling into barbarity.
Do you agree with this? Or do you feel this kind of constant national debate also exists in anglophone Canada, not just in Quebec? And it's not just "are we racist or not?", it can be many other questions as well; as I said in Quebec we've got national debates on anything, down to whether the variety of French we speak is "correct" or not and almost on whether we deserve to exist as a people. Because I don't feel it's the case; the impression I have is that English Canadians usually just assert their greatness without asking themselves any question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
And I might even add that, if as you say (correctly) it was a deliberate attempt to provoke with sex, no one would have even thought of doing that in Quebec, because they already know it would fall flat.
Yes, that's true.
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Old 02-11-2015, 07:21 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post

Do you agree with this? Or do you feel this kind of constant national debate also exists in anglophone Canada, not just in Quebec? And it's not just "are we racist or not?", it can be many other questions as well; as I said in Quebec we've got national debates on anything, down to whether the variety of French we speak is "correct" or not and almost on whether we deserve to exist as a people. Because I don't feel it's the case; the impression I have is that English Canadians usually just assert their greatness without asking themselves any question.


.
Anglo-Canada in my view never asks iiself collectively "are we racist?" or whatever other question, like Quebecers do.

The whole culture whereby an issue comes to the fore in Quebec, and then ends up being discussed by almost literally everyone for a while in the papers, by politicians scrummed by the press, on talk shows, on open line radio shows, around the water cooler at work, at dinner over wine with the girlfriends, at the cottage or by the pool, etc.... doesn't really exist in Anglo-Canada.
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Old 02-11-2015, 08:19 AM
 
1,218 posts, read 2,114,619 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maclock View Post
No, this is most certainly learned behaviour. I'm not implying in any way that it's genetic. Anti-Americanism and pro-Canadian boosterism, especially in the face of anything American, is something that definitely goes on in Canada. Not all Canadians display these attitudes, but many do, particularly those anglophone Canadians who live in the largest urban centres found in the wealthiest bits of the country or in the oldest bits of it.

The reflexively anti-American bit was in response to and in support of what Migratory Chicken raised in his reply to your objection about his original characterisations. I'm doing little more than saying I agree with Migratory Chicken more on this occasion than I do with you.
In terms of an anglo viewpoint, in my experience living in both countries, I find:

Americans typically view Canada in several different ways:
(1)-A little brother who is not top of mind, Canada who?
(2)-Some simply think of a neutral, stable, quiet country that is generally well organized and level-headed but by the same vain, not as accomplished or unique
(3)-Some, albeit a smaller portion, view Canada as more socially progressive, largely because there are not that many red state-type attitudes to contend with

Canadians typically fall into one of two camps when looking at the US:
(4)-Some focus on the sensational aspects of racism, health care horror stories, shootings, scandals, wars etc. and believe American society is riddled with issues and is a dangerous place
(5)-Some look up to the technology, business prowess, entertainment, music, innovation, opportunities that exist, and other achievements/institutions

In terms of learned behavior/historical roots, the US being the worlds superpower has created an ignorant and sometimes arrogant mindset that creeps up every now and then (by some people) in terms of (1) and sometimes (2). Some look up to Canada in terms of (3) although they are typically further left-learning and idealist.

Canada, the smaller neighbour with similar roots or parents, does seem to shelter the burden to separate itself culturally from the US behemoth at times which may manifest itself in (4) by some. Some may call this arrogance, some may call it more of an underdog mentality. Upon moving back to Canada, some people asked me questions about shootings and health care almost expecting first hand horror stories. But some (usually business / go getters who are more likely to fall under (5)) question why I would move back.

Both sides are pretty guilty of stereotyping in my experience, and I've seen enough to know that it definitely exists but it's not serious enough to be concerned about. I'm pretty thick skinned about these matters. Although there are differences between the nations (mostly due to political beliefs and the role of government in my experience), we are more similar culturally than we are different in a global sense and there's nothing wrong with that. There is also plenty we can do to learn from each other and not enough people from both sides have the right attitude to explore these possibilities as we can get caught up in our own hubris. Also, people are people, and I personally judge someone as an individual, not where they hold citizenship. People who are too nationalistic kind of scare me to be honest.

Last edited by johnathanc; 02-11-2015 at 08:32 AM..
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Old 02-11-2015, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
Reputation: 8602
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnathanc View Post
In terms of an anglo viewpoint, in my experience living in both countries, I find:

Americans typically view Canada in several different ways:
(1)-A little brother who is not top of mind, Canada who?
(2)-Some simply think of a neutral, stable, quiet country that is generally well organized and level-headed but by the same vain, not as accomplished or unique
(3)-Some, albeit a smaller portion, view Canada as more socially progressive, largely because there are not that many red state-type attitudes to contend with

Canadians typically fall into one of two camps when looking at the US:
(4)-Some focus on the sensational aspects of racism, health care horror stories, shootings, scandals, wars etc. and believe American society is riddled with issues and is a dangerous place
(5)-Some look up to the technology, business prowess, entertainment, music, innovation, opportunities that exist, and other achievements/institutions

In terms of learned behavior/historical roots, the US being the worlds superpower has created an ignorant and sometimes arrogant mindset that creeps up every now and then (by some people) in terms of (1) and sometimes (2). Some look up to Canada in terms of (3) although they are typically further left-learning and idealist.

Canada, the smaller neighbour with similar roots or parents, does seem to shelter the burden to separate itself culturally from the US behemoth at times which may manifest itself in (4) by some. Some may call this arrogance, some may call it more of an underdog mentality. Upon moving back to Canada, some people asked me questions about shootings and health care almost expecting first hand horror stories. But some (usually business / go getters who are more likely to fall under (5)) question why I would move back.

Both sides are pretty guilty of stereotyping in my experience, and I've seen enough to know that it definitely exists but it's not serious enough to be concerned about. I'm pretty thick skinned about these matters. Although there are differences between the nations (mostly due to political beliefs and the role of government in my experience), we are more similar culturally than we are different in a global sense and there's nothing wrong with that. There is also plenty we can do to learn from each other and not enough people from both sides have the right attitude to explore these possibilities as we can get caught up in our own hubris. Also, people are people, and I personally judge someone as an individual, not where they hold citizenship. People who are too nationalistic kind of scare me to be honest.
This is a very mature post.
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Old 02-11-2015, 04:31 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,133,432 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maclock View Post
So we lack objectivity, do we? It seems that we're also given over to making simplistic observations vulnerable to attack according to your good self. Hrmmm. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
I have to go with Sandmans favourite word here and go..

Sure.
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Old 02-11-2015, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,133,432 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
That's kinda my point. This is a perfect example of how Canadians think Canada is more successful a country. I believe that many Canadians have felt this about Canada since about the 1970s, but it's only started to come out recently as a type of smugness or cocksureness.

My father and some of my uncles who pay attention to such things tell me that in the 50s and into the first part of the 60s there was definitely a sentiment on the part of many that Canada was kind of a loser place and the States was the place to be.

Then starting in the late 60s Canada started to get a bit of a spring in its step, and the U.S. started to have more problems (or at least more visible problems due to live TV news) like race riots, decline of cities, failed military forays abroad, etc.

Canadians started comparing more frequently and found they had it pretty good.

It started off a subtle pride but lately it's become less subtle.

Anyway, just my two cents.
I think it is what it is Acajack.. It all depends on your barometers of what is successful.. I think both countries do many things very very well.. Things they share doing well and some things each clearly do better than the other.. I don't think its wrong for Canadians to sound off what is good about the country.. Isn't this necessary.. Imagine going to a job interview and saying i'm too humble to list off what my attributes are.. I'm just going to tell you where I need to improve upon - the rest i'll bury beneath being modest and humble.. zzzzzzz... c'mon are we made of glass here.. Besides, Even on this forum I have actually criticized elements of our nation - but if it doesn't fit into the narrative that some have concluded about me because I do sound off what i'm proud of well - they'll just latch onto my so called 'boosterism'

I think the smugness and cockiness is overplayed on both sides of the border.. I'm going to go with Bostonkid, Mags and Stoke with their general sentiment that this is largely overplayed and more to do with internet cockiness than anything else. I'm going by Canadians I know throughout my life - in real life and the word smug and cocky don't even closely come to mind first about Canadians in general.. Moreover, I don't think that Anglo Canadians feel we have eliminated poverty or bigotry either..
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