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View Poll Results: Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement?
Yes 106 66.67%
No 53 33.33%
Voters: 159. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-08-2014, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,968 posts, read 27,443,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I think that it is far more productive when citizens of the nation work out issues as opposed to people from outside the country who have no vested interest or skin in the game getting involved. Would you feel comfortable with a foreigner determining the fate of our nation? I sure as well would not want that! I think most Canadians would agree with me that this is an internal matter that should be dealt with internally.
Sure, but I hardly think that hobbesdj coming on this forum to share his observations spent during his years in Quebec is really going to influence things one way or the other.

Canadians comment on American stuff all the time, including Canadians who know a lot less about U.S. affairs than hobbesdj knows about our stuff. (You may not agree with his analysis but he knows Canadian history better than many Canadians, I can assure you.)

In any event, I doubt anyone in Quebec is going to be voting for independence some day just because a guy from Maryland on city-data made some arguments saying it was a legitimate movement. (As much I hold hobbesdj in high esteem!)
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Old 12-08-2014, 09:41 AM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
The question asks if it is a legitimate movement not if you prefer a united Canada. Out of curiosity - do you see a group of people who were conquered by force and made second class citizens for most of their history to be out of line if they want independence. If this was a country in Africa or Asia, what would you say?
Good question. If this was the 1,000+ year culture of France in Europe that was threatened, then I would say do what ever was necessary to defend it, including independence from the EU.

But this is not Europe. Or Africa or Asia. This is multi-ethnic, multi-racial, multi-religious North America. An entire province (or state) does not belong to just one racial or ethnic group. Quebec does not belong just to the French, Alaska does not just belong to the Russians or Inuit, Nova Scotia does not belong just to the Scots.

In other words, I would say we should support cultural heritage and diversity, but I also think there should be a limit.
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Old 12-08-2014, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,968 posts, read 27,443,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Good question. If this was the 1,000+ year culture of France in Europe that was threatened, then I would say do what ever was necessary to defend it, including independence from the EU.

But this is not Europe. Or Africa or Asia. This is multi-ethnic, multi-racial, multi-religious North America. An entire province (or state) does not belong to just one racial or ethnic group. Quebec does not belong just to the French, Alaska does not just belong to the Russians or Inuit, Nova Scotia does not belong just to the Scots.

In other words, I would say we should support cultural heritage and diversity, but I also think there should be a limit.
But how do you set and define the limit?

Keep in mind that francophone culture has existed in Quebec for more than 400 years, longer than Anglo-American culture has existed pretty much anywhere west of the Applachians.

It's also existed here for longer than some European cultures have existed in the areas where they are now dominant.
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Old 12-08-2014, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,176,078 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maclock View Post
Judge much? I'm a dispassionate individual. Some might describe me as being somewhat emotionless or a bit of a cold fish. You're not. You're a passionate, emotional individual. The difference between us would appear to be as simple as that. "[N]egative ... mystery loves company." Oh my!



I don't really care about you pointing out the shortcomings of Toronto with which I'm already familiar. Anyway, you appear to be one of those optimistic types who have a viewpoint about Canada with which many like me aren't likely to agree. That's not a problem, but we're out there, we're not going away, and we don't intend to remain silent. You know that, though, so we can continue to engage in dialogue via these threads.



Well, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried, but thank you very much for trying to depict me as a negative person with nothing of value to add. In my present role, I work constantly for the betterment of my fellow Albertans. Canadians across the land in turn benefit from the work done by me and my colleagues. Not that many of those Canadians truly appreciate our efforts or the value that we add, but I digress.
Lets just face it Maclock -yer a divisive follow.. You look after number 1 and I get that about you.. I think yer probably an older dude who isn't as connected with either the rest of his country or the world at large. Its ok - yer just old school.. The way I see it, where we essentially disagree is where the hearts of most Canadians lie and i'd say that is for a strong and united Canada - not one splintered in to two or even more pieces. I think having a unifying force in the country is a good thing - you disagree.. Ultimately we or the next few generations in this country will make that decision.. In your lifetime (seeing as you must be an older dude) and my probably my lifetime - Canada will be one.
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Old 12-08-2014, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,968 posts, read 27,443,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Quebecois seperatists dont care if you put Quebec bumper stickers on your car, or proclaim to love Quebec when they threaten seperation. They care about Anglos learning about thir language and culture. They want English Canadians to at least try to understand their culture just as they have done with Anglo culture for centuries. The percentage of English Canadians who speak French is about the same as people in England who can speak French and that says alot about how interested English Canadians are in what is supposed to be an equal culture.
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I'd even say that Québécois people have in recent years even curbed their expectations or ambitions. Right now it seems like most people have given up on the cross-Canada aspect of this, and simply want anyone who chooses to live in Quebec itself to make an effort to modestly integrate with the language and culture. But even this seems to much to ask for some people...

So when even that's too much to ask, it's no surprise the movement refuses to die.
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Old 12-08-2014, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Toronto
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Sure, but I hardly think that hobbesdj coming on this forum to share his observations spent during his years in Quebec is really going to influence things one way or the other.

Canadians comment on American stuff all the time, including Canadians who know a lot less about U.S. affairs than hobbesdj knows about our stuff. (You may not agree with his analysis but he knows Canadian history better than many Canadians, I can assure you.)

In any event, I doubt anyone in Quebec is going to be voting for independence some day just because a guy from Maryland on city-data made some arguments saying it was a legitimate movement. (As much I hold hobbesdj in high esteem!)
Well you are essentially right - his views won't make a lick of difference in the real future of the country. You have kids - i'm sure you want to strike the right balance in teaching them about the past but at the same time opening their eyes to the fact that our past - even those parts that have blights (they surely all don't lol) aren't going to allow them to be anchored by it to the point that they are a jaded Maclock.. It is that generation that will either bridge divides or increase them.. Id like to advocate for the former and I think that approach will make us all stronger. I'm sort of glad that I haven't become jaded about history and frame my view of things by what i see and my interactions with real people in the present - it means my approach to any new person I meet from coast to coast is open - people will see that when they meet me.

As for Hobbes - i'm not questioning his knowledge of history and its great we have this American dude who is interested in Canada and its history - I just personally think any person who doesn't have skin in the game and really only understands the country at large by what he has read or limited experiences outside of Montreal and Quebec and somehow attempts to understand how or what I feel about Quebec is personal.. If the guy is that passionate and cares so much than move back to Quebec and get involved and maybe even be open minded enough to go to other parts of the country. As I said, i'd respect that more otherwise its just some dude who frames his views based on what has been read, in a class and limited actual experience here in a College term.

Ultimately - the future will tell wheter we are a nation that chooses to come together as a strong united force - or we splinter into pieces because of indifference and regional chest thumping. You hold Hobbes in esteem - but are his views about the future really what is best for Quebec and Canada as a whole... I think we all need to think about that carefully..
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Old 12-08-2014, 10:10 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,968 posts, read 27,443,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
As for Hobbes - i'm not questioning his knowledge of history and its great we have this American dude who is interested in Canada and its history - I just personally think any person who doesn't have skin in the game and really only understands the country at large by what he has read or limited experiences outside of Montreal and Quebec and somehow attempts to understand how or what I feel about Quebec is personal.. If the guy is that passionate and cares so much than move back to Quebec and get involved and maybe even be open minded enough to go to other parts of the country. As I said, i'd respect that more otherwise its just some dude who frames his views based on what has been read, in a class and limited actual experience here in a College term.
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Perhaps he made good friends during his time in Montreal and he sympathizes on issues that they care deeply about and wants to support them in a modest way by providing counter-arguments when only one side of the issue is being portratyed (as is often the case with discussions taking place in English about Quebec)?
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Old 12-08-2014, 10:17 AM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
But how do you set and define the limit?

Keep in mind that francophone culture has existed in Quebec for more than 400 years, longer than Anglo-American culture has existed pretty much anywhere west of the Applachians.

It's also existed here for longer than some European cultures have existed in the areas where they are now dominant.
I do not know an exact limit. I guess it depends. But I would say the limit has been reached, when if Quebec declares independence in order to protect their culture, threatens the economic well being of millions of other Canadians.

In other words, protecting the unique French culture of Quebec is important but IMO it is not more important then the welfare of ALL the people of Canada.
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Old 12-08-2014, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,176,078 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Perhaps he made good friends during his time in Montreal and he sympathizes on issues that they care deeply about and wants to support them in a modest way by providing counter-arguments when only one side of the issue is being portratyed (as is often the case with discussions taking place in English about Quebec)?
Well I think empathy for Quebec's position not just in Canada but in Canamerica as a whole is in order.. Canada itself often has the a similar feeling when we are next to a cultural and economic giant.. How many times does Hobbes and other Americans like to throw that in our face

I think if Hobbes got to know more Canadians outside of a small part - his views of the R.O.C might not be like daggers...

Anyway, i'm open to actually doing something about making a difference and there should be a stronger desire for more Canadians to understand and connect with more parts of the country.. How do we do this? I'm not asking you specifically i'm putting it out there.. Believe it or not, other than the fact I don't speak French - I actually do have connections to Quebec more than any other Province - partly geography and partly where I work and just moments of chance.. This isn't to say that the people I know are going to fundamentally change their views about Quebec, but it starts one person at a time..

What can the R.O.C do to make more of a difference in this matter... Can we? Its a fundamental question all Canadians need to ask - is this union worth fighting passionately for (and not just Quebec, there are divisions elsewhere) or do we amicably just say this isn't working and is largely just an economic union...I'd like to think there are more fundamental threads that link us all together..

Last edited by fusion2; 12-08-2014 at 10:31 AM..
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Old 12-08-2014, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,968 posts, read 27,443,294 times
Reputation: 8626
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
I do not know an exact limit. I guess it depends. But I would say the limit has been reached, when if Quebec declares independence in order to protect their culture, threatens the economic well being of millions of other Canadians.

In other words, protecting the unique French culture of Quebec is important but IMO it is not more important then the welfare of ALL the people of Canada.
I think before you go further you should know that a rather large segment of the Canadian population outside Quebec thinks its economic well-being would be superior without Quebec in Canada, but nonetheless wants to keep Quebec within Canada anyway, for a variety of reasons (old time's sake, the vision of a united Canada, a sense of shared history, an important distinguisher from the U.S., etc.)

That's why a lot of the discussions on this tend to be very harsh and even snarky, because many "other Canadians" think they are doing Quebec a bit of a favour by allowing them to stay in Canada. And they see Quebec's flirtation with independence and aloofness as a bit of an ingratitude.
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