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View Poll Results: Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement?
Yes 106 66.67%
No 53 33.33%
Voters: 159. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-08-2014, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,326,583 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Well I think empathy for Quebec's position not just in Canada but in Canamerica as a whole is in order.. Canada itself often has the a similar feeling when we are next to a cultural and economic giant.. How many times does Hobbes like to throw that in our face

I think if Hobbes got to know more Canadians outside of a small part - his views of the R.O.C might not be like daggers...

Anyway, i'm open to actually doing something about making a difference and there should be a stronger desire for more Canadians to understand and connect with more parts of the country.. How do we do this? I'm not asking you specifically i'm putting it out there.. Believe it or not, other than the fact I don't speak French - I actually do have connections to Quebec more than any other Province - partly geography and partly where I work and just moments of chance.. This isn't to say that the people I know are going to fundamentally change their views about Quebec, but it starts one person at a time..

What can the R.O.C do to make more of a difference in this matter... Can we? Its a fundamental question all Canadians need to ask - is this union worth fighting passionately for or do we amicably just say this isn't working and is largely just an economic union...
We have no idea of how many Anglo-Canadians (inside or outside Quebec) hobbesdj knows, and it's a bit condescending to suggest that he has come to his conclusions simply by talking only with francophone Québécois separatists.

I believe he went to Concordia in Montreal, so it's likely he met many non-francophones there who strongly believed in a united Canada.

In any event, his views are shared by millions of Canadians. So it's a legitimate, entirely Canadian viewpoint he is expressing. It's not as if he was talking about something far-fetched that nobody here is espousing like Manitoba independence.
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Old 12-08-2014, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,261,726 times
Reputation: 2168
I have only asserted my belief that the desire for independence among many Quebecois is understandable. I have also tried to delve into some reasons why this movement for independence has become such a popular force un Quebec. Nowhere here have I professed to be a cross-border seperatiste nor have I egged anyone on to vote for independence.

What you have done is conflate an understanding for the independence movement with active support for the movement. This a common error made by ROCers. Acajack, I believe I have seen you become the target of this assumption before. That is to say that I have seen you express some support for autonomy from ROC and some understanding for why seperatism exists, and as a result were branded a separatiste yourself and shouted down. It is as if anyone (especially Quebecois) who even questions a united Canada runs the risk if being dismissed as just another separatiste. Ironically this serves to bolster the divide between Quebec and ROC and inly magnifies the lready evident disconnect.

Fusion what I am trying to convey is that there is a difference between actual support for dividing Canada and understanding why some want to do so. Do I support the separatists or a united Canada? I'd like to keep that to myself. What I do know is that the topic is one that should be able to be freely discussed by Canadians and foreigners alike.

In addition to these points, the use of other assumptions and insults (Maclock must be old to have his beliefs?) do little to further the discussion. Ironically, the ideas you put forward of steadfast belief in a united Canada and unwavering loyalty to the idea lest the country fall apart are very much lines of thinking held by the old guard. On the other hand, the belief in the Laurentian Consensus, the non-existence of a Canadian nation, and the rejection of any belief of moral superiority are very much the "new" way of thinking. Some have called this the Anglo equivalent if the Quiet Revolution.
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Old 12-08-2014, 10:47 AM
 
1,316 posts, read 2,031,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Lets just face it Maclock -yer a divisive follow.. You look after number 1 and I get that about you.. I think yer probably an older dude who isn't as connected with either the rest of his country or the world at large. Its ok - yer just old school.. The way I see it, where we essentially disagree is where the hearts of most Canadians lie and i'd say that is for a strong and united Canada - not one splintered in to two or even more pieces. I think having a unifying force in the country is a good thing - you disagree.. Ultimately we or the next few generations in this country will make that decision.. In your lifetime (seeing as you must be an older dude) and my probably my lifetime - Canada will be one. [Emphasis added: With what do I disagree? What "unifying force" are you talking about? You might be racing ahead of yourself a little bit here.]
We're extremely close to being the same age. As for me being a divisive follow, I'd suggest that I'm just a realist. I've also described myself in the past as being a brutal pragmatist. Both fit me to a T, I should think.

As for not being "as connected with either the rest of his country or the world at large", whatever that's supposed to mean, I suspect that I've lived in a wider range of cities and countries than your good self. Anyway, our discussion is degenerating into sniping, so we'd probably do well let it go for the time being. You keep on believing what you believe and I'll keep on believing what I believe. That's the beauty of free thought and free speech. All the best to you.
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Old 12-08-2014, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,130,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
We have no idea of how many Anglo-Canadians (inside or outside Quebec) hobbesdj knows, and it's a bit condescending to suggest that he has come to his conclusions simply by talking only with francophone Québécois separatists.

I believe he went to Concordia in Montreal, so it's likely he met many non-francophones there who strongly believed in a united Canada.

In any event, his views are shared by millions of Canadians. So it's a legitimate, entirely Canadian viewpoint he is expressing. It's not as if he was talking about something far-fetched that nobody here is espousing like Manitoba independence.
Right but we aren't having a discussion about building bridges here are we Acajack - until we all are willing and able to do that including those who have legitimate concerns than we will make no traction. I throw the question out there again to anyone who will listen... What does Canada need to do to build bridges and is this something we can do?
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Old 12-08-2014, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,130,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maclock View Post
We're extremely close to being the same age. As for me being a divisive follow, I'd suggest that I'm just a realist. I've also described myself in the past as being a brutal pragmatist. Both fit me to a T, I should think.

As for not being "as connected with either the rest of his country or the world at large", whatever that's supposed to mean, I suspect that I've lived in a wider range of cities and countries than your good self. Anyway, our discussion is degenerating into sniping, so we'd probably do well let it go for the time being. You keep on believing what you believe and I'll keep on believing what I believe. That's the beauty of free thought and free speech. All the best to you.
Oh I thought you were of an older generation my apologies!

Anyway, just because i'm passionate about the future unity of the country and wanting us to resolve differences and make something stand the test of time doesn't mean I want to censor views. Obviously you are free to think and speak as am I - I think that is the beauty of Canada (among other nations) that we can do this.. We can even come out of the closet on an internet forum and say the same things we are saying on the streets of Montreal, Calgary and Toronto too..

Anyway, i'm willing to put my money where my mouth is if someone has good suggestions on what needs to be done - me as an Ontarian in Toronto to do my part to make a difference in a meaningful way.. If I get the finger from people and they just say - hey its too late or hey we don't want this thing called Canada - we'd rather the country of Alberta and Quebec than you know what I can accept it but at the very least I can't be accused of living in some textbook and if it happens that after dissolution takes places, people say hey shoot we lost more than we thought here and there are regrets I as a part of the 'new' Canada can hold my head up high and say I'm comfortable with the part I played.

I wish the best to you as well - btw and I mean that!
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Old 12-08-2014, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,261,726 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
We have no idea of how many Anglo-Canadians (inside or outside Quebec) hobbesdj knows, and it's a bit condescending to suggest that he has come to his conclusions simply by talking only with francophone Québécois separatists.

I believe he went to Concordia in Montreal, so it's likely he met many non-francophones there who strongly believed in a united Canada.

In any event, his views are shared by millions of Canadians. So it's a legitimate, entirely Canadian viewpoint he is expressing. It's not as if he was talking about something far-fetched that nobody here is espousing like Manitoba independence.
Yes I attended Concordia which is an English-language instution that is flooded with Anglo (including a very large percentage of Ontario) students. Several of my professors preached for a united Canada like firebrands. The story told of Canada tended to feature all the usual tenets:

- Moral superiority over other countries, especially the US
- The uncompromising belief in a Canadian nation of people
- Outright rejection of separatism and at times more moderate topics i.e. autonomy
- A general air of disdain for French speakers who refuse assimilation
- Belief in Canada as a peacekeeping nation
- A mythical history of English and French happily coming together to create one
- Passive aggressive anti-Americanism
- An exaggeration of Canada's role and reputation in the world

So it isn't as if I spent my time making political demands with radical separatistes. I lived downtown in a predominanty anglophone/immigrant area. I did befriend many Quebecois and found that the ones who were separatistes were not fire-breathing evildoers bent on striking back at les anglais. They are just people who are actually quite reasonable. They aren't demanding the return of Nova Scotia or Ontario. They have no interest in forcing the French language on the good residents of Alberta. They don't seek to 'get back' at anglophones in ROC. They simply recognize that Canada was one big compromise and they feel that this compromise is not in the best interest of their nation. To make a long story short, they don't fit the Canada-hating image often peddled in ROC. They are just people doing what many of us would do in the same situation.

I've also spent a fair share of time in Ontario. I don't want to come off as having a swelled head, but I am very familiar with English Canadians and the politics, history, and society of Canada. And I have said this before but I'll say it again: One cannot make an accurate assesment of the Quebec independence movement without learning French and trying to view their culture and history objectively. There are millions upon millions of people across Canada who never even known a francophone-only Quebecois, seen a Quebecois TV show, or read a Quebecois political article yet claim to know the ins and outs of Quebecois culture and the independence movement!
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Old 12-08-2014, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,326,583 times
Reputation: 8602
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Right but we aren't having a discussion about building bridges here are we Acajack - until we all are willing and able to do that including those who have legitimate concerns than we will make no traction. I throw the question out there again to anyone who will listen... What does Canada need to do to build bridges and is this something we can do?
That's an interesting topic for sure, but probably for another thread.
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Old 12-08-2014, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,673 posts, read 8,740,385 times
Reputation: 7281
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Yes I attended Concordia which is an English-language instution that is flooded with Anglo (including a very large percentage of Ontario) students. Several of my professors preached for a united Canada like firebrands. The story told of Canada tended to feature all the usual tenets:

- Moral superiority over other countries, especially the US
- The uncompromising belief in a Canadian nation of people
- Outright rejection of separatism and at times more moderate topics i.e. autonomy
- A general air of disdain for French speakers who refuse assimilation
- Belief in Canada as a peacekeeping nation
- A mythical history of English and French happily coming together to create one
- Passive aggressive anti-Americanism
- An exaggeration of Canada's role and reputation in the world

So it isn't as if I spent my time making political demands with radical separatistes. I lived downtown in a predominanty anglophone/immigrant area. I did befriend many Quebecois and found that the ones who were separatistes were not fire-breathing evildoers bent on striking back at les anglais. They are just people who are actually quite reasonable. They aren't demanding the return of Nova Scotia or Ontario. They have no interest in forcing the French language on the good residents of Alberta. They don't seek to 'get back' at anglophones in ROC. They simply recognize that Canada was one big compromise and they feel that this compromise is not in the best interest of their nation. To make a long story short, they don't fit the Canada-hating image often peddled in ROC. They are just people doing what many of us would do in the same situation.

I've also spent a fair share of time in Ontario. I don't want to come off as having a swelled head, but I am very familiar with English Canadians and the politics, history, and society of Canada. And I have said this before but I'll say it again: One cannot make an accurate assesment of the Quebec independence movement without learning French and trying to view their culture and history objectively. There are millions upon millions of people across Canada who never even known a francophone-only Quebecois, seen a Quebecois TV show, or read a Quebecois political article yet claim to know the ins and outs of Quebecois culture and the independence movement!
The ones I highlighted I find hilarious and false.

My take is that you formed your opinions while surrounded in the world of academia, mixing with a few others who are in the same sphere. Your experience IS limited, no matter what you believe.

It's like you've read the headlines but not the body of text, when it comes to the complicated relationship between Quebec and the ROC.
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Old 12-08-2014, 12:08 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,130 posts, read 9,899,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I think before you go further you should know that a rather large segment of the Canadian population outside Quebec thinks its economic well-being would be superior without Quebec in Canada, but nonetheless wants to keep Quebec within Canada anyway, for a variety of reasons (old time's sake, the vision of a united Canada, a sense of shared history, an important distinguisher from the U.S., etc.)

That's why a lot of the discussions on this tend to be very harsh and even snarky, because many "other Canadians" think they are doing Quebec a bit of a favour by allowing them to stay in Canada. And they see Quebec's flirtation with independence and aloofness as a bit of an ingratitude.
Its funny because if I were of French heritage in Quebec, I may very well be in favor of independence. That's the strong pull of emotion and nationalism. Does not make it the wise decision though.

That's because what you have built in Canada is a wealthy and democratic country and what I feel is a force for good in the World. Risking the economic well being and perhaps even the very political survival of Canada --- and I am thinking not just short term but also long term --- for the sake of ethnic pride in Quebec seems strange to me.
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Old 12-08-2014, 12:09 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,326,583 times
Reputation: 8602
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Its funny because if I were of French heritage in Quebec, I may very well be in favor of independence. That's the strong pull of emotion and nationalism. Does not make it the wise decision though.

That's because what you have built in Canada is a wealthy and democratic country and what I feel is a force for good in the World. Risking the economic well being and perhaps even the very political survival of Canada --- and I am thinking not just short term but also long term --- for the sake of ethnic pride in Quebec seems strange to me.
Not sure where you are trying to take me with this...
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