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If you are speaking generally, then absolutely I agree that Quebec will have to figure out the direction they want to take their relationship with the US, along with other emerging superpowers across the globe. There will be a level of give and take and many times that take from the US is not pleasant. You specifically mentioned Latin America, so I was curious as to why you would use such an exaggerated comparison or a region of the world you obviously do not have much familiarity with.
As you mentioned the US has a very strong influence across the globe, so there are countless other examples you could have used that would have been a more comfortable fit. Or were you using dramatics for added effect?
And there are also many quebecers that don't care much about Canada and that will not support the idea of independance because they are scared of loosing their living standards, which I find so miserable...proud canadians in quebec are not a panacea amongs french quebecers, I have no stats, but that's what I experimented so far
Yes, in the referendums of 1980 and 1995, as well as the latest groundwork laid by the PQ, a sovereign association with ROC rather than full blown independence has been the plan. This means dual citizenship for the Quebecois and the chance for Canadians who want to be part of Quebec to join. This is in addition to sharing the Canadian dollar and open borders. The benefits for Quebec would be the ability to have free reign over internal affairs without the interference of the federal government, as well as independent control over diplomatic relations.
In other words, for the ROC, the heads I lose tails, QC wins?
Bill 101 and the signage laws, just to start.
In other words, for the ROC, the heads I lose tails, QC wins?
I'm an American and lived in Quebec for some time. I never felt opressed in any way whatsoever by the francophones. Usually the people making this claim are those who have refused (or failed) to learn French despite being in an overwhelmingly French speaking province. This is akin to only speaking Spanish in California and claiming you are oppressed because they want you to learn English. Well over 80% of Quebec speaks French as a first language, while less than 10% speak English as a first language. Before the 1960's and the implementation of Bill 101, the Quebecois were colonized and were for all intents and purposes relegated to being second class citizens within Canada. Bill 101 has been one of the most important factors in changing Quebec from what was effectively a colonial society, to a more equal one.
Here are some facts about Quebec before the implementationBill 101:
- francophones accounted for about 80% of the population
- 83% of the directors and managers in Quebec were anglophones;
- Francophones earned on average 35% less than anglophones; - Even with the same level of education, francophones earned less than anglophones of any background; - Francophones came 12th in the income distribution by ethnicity, just before the Italians immigrants and Native people;
- Even with the same level of education, francophones earned less than anglophones of any background;
- Unilingual anglophones earned more than bilingual francophones;
- Francophones were routinely restricted from speaking French the workplace, even among themselves
Without this "oppressive" bill Quebec would be immensely more "oppressive" for the overwhelming majority of inhabitants.
I agree with you on that and I don't want to minimize fusion's litteracy here, but in the ROC culture, fearful feeling towards quebec's independance are well anchored and I believe it blurs the truth on this matter IMHO. Medias and politicians have contributed significantly to that.
Also I've heard so many, many time "what does Qc want that they don't have!?", which tells that they are under the impression that Qc have control over pretty much everything, or at least every things that really matters. You would never ever ear such argument in Qc because quebecers know that have nothing to say in plenty of 'national sensitive matters'.
If you want to see what a Canadian flag looks like, go to Toronto, you will see be biggest ones...at least go anywhere but in Quebec, why's that? I'm happy that the ROC feels that way and I feel pride for them, but in Quebec, if you compare, there are none..and ironically they were both made by french quebecers, we are weird, aren't we?! Quebec flag: 1948 and Canadian flag 1964 ( not easily adopted in favour of the Union jack )
I am one of those Quebecers that have strong friendship feelings towards canadians (not necessarly politicians , but just don't feel it's my country, not because of hate or because we are any better, or capable but because, we need to be and we need to assume our selves. In our daily lives, we are way too disconnected because of the language barrer to fell attached to the same country.
I don't see why becoming a country while maintaining strong relationship would be bad for any of us. Quebec is not France and ROC is not England abviously, but how many wars thoses two countries when through? There are two seperate country, I tell me if I am wrong, the friendship between France and England is quite good now, or at least way better than if they would be in the same country at least well I think qc and canada would develop a much more genuine if they would talking to each others nation to nation
Did you ever think to consider that some Canadians (even those who don't speak French) actually care? For all this discussion and the fact that people will go on about how emotive and fearful we are honestly I think many Canadians including Quebecers have a fear about separation.. Let's face it, there are some appeals on both sides - many Canadians do have a sort of Quebec fatigue where it just feel like separatists are holding the country hostage - some will even go so far as to call them terrorists..
On the flip - you have Quebecers who just convince themselves that people don't genuinely care on a human level and just want to keep the union out of habit or history.. I think honestly for most the truth is in between but don't think that just because someone in Toronto who doesn't speak French and isn't engrained in your culture doesn't care - that just isn't true..
Ultimately I think this is why for whatever reason(s) we all stick together - this is a big world and there are plenty of influences out there.. we can deny the potency of them but they are indeed there.. I don't want to sound like a mother hen lol, but its true.. Canada as it is doesn't exist just because of English Canada.. In all its good and all its bad its something that all of us and our ancestors built.. This is why I have always maintained that Quebec and her people should ultimately be able to decide their own fate and if secession is that determination than I would respect that. Would it upset me? Sure it would - why shouldn't it.. Why shouldn't it upset most of us and this is the real truth here, we are talking about something that has its issues yet when all is said and done do we live in a nation that does afford most citizens a good Q.O.L and freedom!! All indications are we do... Would that continue post separation - I think so and perhaps it would be better I honestly don't know but I think we all have to be truthful with ourselves that we would lose something and it wouldn't be easy and we really don't know if we will be better off... For some, it would be an exciting new journey but for many it would be also a scary and challenging one and truth be told - nobody in these forums knows exactly what would happen.. Its not fear mongering, it is the truth and its something many of us share is what would happen and would we be better off or not so it is a reason we keep things status quo..
It is in all probability going to be a long time before there is another referendum... I hope in the coming decade we do work in a manner that will create more lasting connections and a stronger unity for the children of tomorrow.. Call it dramatic but we have to live in real life and not on a forum trying to score points or reputation.. As for the Vis a vis thing - big deal you learn and move on - humility and humanism is a good thing for any people or culture
The question of separation isn't just a list or an argument or facts and details to be won like a debate class - it is something that rests in the heart, mind, soul and the life of experience of a human being who is faced with that decision..
I'd be careful speculating on next election.. I think Ontario and Quebec are going to be much more red this time around with much less orange - if that is the case than his Lordship will be in for a VERY tough ride... Stephen Harper has never garnered more than 40 percent support of Canadians, he's always only been in power because of a fractured left and centre left - I think 2015 will be a bit different as there is a candidate with more widespread appeal than any Harper has gone against.. Both Ontario and Quebec seem to be very red these days.
I think Pretty Boy does not have universal appeal. He is not ready for the big times either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2
I'd be open to modifying the Constitution (fixed) if it meant more support across the country. I do think fundamental rights in the Charter that protect everyone from a human rights perspective need to be maintained though!
How does it protect Anglophones? The protection is so profound that lots of Anglophones have been voting with their feet since the 1976 elections.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guytar1220
That's an ugly part of the story and so revealing of politician lazyness: easier to stay as is and just convince quebecers to stay part of Canada... (if it doesn't work then tell them they are intolerant racist egocentric narrow-minded type of country brakers sons of a biiip)....than stir the sh.t to get a more accurate political system...and meanwhile separation will continue to arouse interest for the unsatisfied voters
All of this talk of independence is nice. We all know that an independent Quebec would not be economically self-sufficient. Who should subsidize this "unique" culture? The ROC? The U.N.?
I have a real problem with the fact that most of the Fourth World is "independent" politically but not economically. When the third-rate thugs took most of Africa and Asia "independent" why did the world put up with subsidizing this foolishness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj
Without this "oppressive" bill Quebec would be immensely more "oppressive" for the overwhelming majority of inhabitants.
That's fine as a Quebec-centric analysis. Quebec is a part of a country known as Canada. What about the rights of Canadians in Quebec either as visitors or persons wanting to do business. Do they have no rights?
Are you one of those people who thinks that whites are "oppressed" by civil rights laws in the USA?
No.
The difference is that Anglophones are being subject to the tyranny of the majority. I would argue that in towns or counties that are dominated by any particular ethnic group the rights of the majority have to be protected as well.
I think Pretty Boy does not have universal appeal. He is not ready for the big times either.
How does it protect Anglophones? The protection is so profound that lots of Anglophones have been voting with their feet since the 1976 elections.All of this talk of independence is nice. We all know that an independent Quebec would not be economically self-sufficient. Who should subsidize this "unique" culture? The ROC? The U.N.?
?
Trudeau is certainly the most handsome of the bunch that is for sure.. He can kick butt in a boxing ring as well lol... I disagree with you regarding his appeal and I think he is the most appealing candidate out there right now and I think polls show that... Does he have to gain some experience - sure but heck i'm not a big fan of Harper at all - I think he is a divisive fellow and overall hasn't been good for Canada and lacks vision.. He is far too apt to put people who don't agree with his ideology out to pasteur - he's far from being all of Canada's Prime Minister - he's ice cold....
The Charter of Rights and Freedoms doesn't protect Canadians ie. Fundamental freedoms etc??... what am I missing.
The last part about us all knowing that Quebec would not be able to sustain itself is exactly the type of fuel that is NOT productive and is something you simply don't know!! It creates division and inspires nothing but increased anger and hostility...
Did you correct my spelling of Constitution - seriously people, I type a whole bunch of as some say 'rants' cut me some damned slack will ya... People are too serious in here... We are partaking in a casual forum here.. I feel like some of y'all think you are a Professor who needs to correct every last thing.. PUHLEASE
The difference is that Anglophones are being subject to the tyranny of the majority. I would argue that in towns or counties that are dominated by any particular ethnic group the rights of the majority have to be protected as well.
Well - nobody can accuse me of being the drama queen anymore
Trudeau is certainly the most handsome of the bunch that is for sure.. He can kick butt in a boxing ring as well lol... I disagree with you regarding his appeal and I think he is the most appealing candidate out there right now and I think polls show that... Does he have to gain some experience - sure but heck i'm not a big fan of Harper at all - I think he is a divisive fellow and overall hasn't been good for Canada and lacks vision.. He is far too apt to put people who don't agree with his ideology out to pasteur - he's far from being all of Canada's Prime Minister - he's ice cold....
The Charter of Rights and Freedoms doesn't protect Canadians ie. Fundamental freedoms etc??... what am I missing.
The last part about us all knowing that Quebec would not be able to sustain itself is exactly the type of fuel that is NOT productive and is something you simply don't know!! It creates division and inspires nothing but increased anger and hostility...
Did you correct my spelling of Constitution - seriously people, I type a whole bunch of as some say 'rants' cut me some damned slack will ya... People are too serious in here... We are partaking in a casual forum here.. I feel like some of y'all think you are a Professor who needs to correct every last thing.. PUHLEASE
LOL...sorry could not resist
From one who has suffered the slings and arrows of auto-correct as well.
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, but just don't feel it's my country, not because of hate or because we are any better, or capable but because, we need to be and we need to assume our selves. In our daily lives, we are way too disconnected because of the language barrer to fell attached to the same country.
well I think qc and canada would develop a much more genuine if they would talking to each others nation to nation
