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Quiet systemic racism is the way it works today. The amount of overt racial incidents have declined since the height of the civil rights movement and Jim Crow. This is the type of racism that changes the lives of people of colour on a daily basis. The fact that you are focusing on overt racism shows me you are not equipped to have a reasonable discussion on this topic.
As I said clearly in my previous post engaging in a conversation about whether one country is more or less racist than the other is a pointless exercise. Only someone who is hell bent on proving that their nation is morally superior would waste even a moment trying to prove something like that. Would it not be more constructive to say that both have racial issues that are easily documented and try to speak openly about how we can change this?
You have experienced the pain of discrimination yourself, why on earth would someone like you want to know which country is more or less racist?
You want some statistics? Look up how often men of colour are stopped and documented for no reason in major US cities, then compare it to the study conducted by the Toronto Star "Known to Police". Compare the unemployment rates in both countries for whites vs VM. Compare the wage gap for whites vs VM. What you will find is that both countries have a long fu*king way to go!
So what did you think of Rudi Gulliani's discussion or whatever it was that I caught a bit of on CNN? He was making a point about black-on-black crime statistics. In spite of the history of blacks and it's awful legacy that persists to this day, is it fair to discuss any of that? Do white people have any part in that discussion?
I will say this as a general comment - I think that every nation on earth has an equal percentage of potential racists. Where there is not a significant minority, there is little attention paid or perhaps the minority person is almost a kind of 'cute' mascot for the majority. People seem to have an innate need to feel superior to someone and they will almost always find a way to justify it. It could be that they focus on colour, and then they justify their racism on another potential fact such as crime statistics, or, as is currently the case with Muslims, confuse the religion with the extremists. But I think these are all ways of seeing another person as 'the other' and one's self as the 'true' people, as many cultures have literally called themselves.
But I also think that when statistically there is a group of people associated with an activity, then it is natural to be looking extra hard at those people. And I am wondering, as the aunt to black nieces and nephews, and as the niece and sister to cops, just where the 'safe place' is for either party.
So what did you think of Rudi Gulliani's discussion or whatever it was that I caught a bit of on CNN? He was making a point about black-on-black crime statistics. In spite of the history of blacks and it's awful legacy that persists to this day, is it fair to discuss any of that? Do white people have any part in that discussion?
I will say this as a general comment - I think that every nation on earth has an equal percentage of potential racists. Where there is not a significant minority, there is little attention paid or perhaps the minority person is almost a kind of 'cute' mascot for the majority. People seem to have an innate need to feel superior to someone and they will almost always find a way to justify it. It could be that they focus on colour, and then they justify their racism on another potential fact such as crime statistics, or, as is currently the case with Muslims, confuse the religion with the extremists. But I think these are all ways of seeing another person as 'the other' and one's self as the 'true' people, as many cultures have literally called themselves.
But I also think that when statistically there is a group of people associated with an activity, then it is natural to be looking extra hard at those people. And I am wondering, as the aunt to black nieces and nephews, and as the niece and sister to cops, just where the 'safe place' is for either party.
I definitely think white folks have a huge part in any discussion about race. I never intended for this to be an "us" vs "them" type of discussion. Especially someone like yourself who has a vested interest in seeing this take a turn for the better. (BTW, netwit I will always remember your post speaking about how you go out of your way to buy black literature for your black nieces and nephews and how you find it important that they are exposed to that type of writing and history)
As far as aggressive policing is concerned I have a few thoughts. If the statistics are high in predominantly black, Latino and first nation communities that happen to be high crime areas, I can somewhat accept that. The issue is that people of colour are targeted and stopped disproportionately in predominantly white neighborhoods and policing zones as well. So if this has everything to do with population and crime, that last thought throws a wrench into that thinking. We also have to look at how much of a difference this style of policing has truly made. Can we say that targeting folks for petty crimes has made things better, worse or about the same? If the answer is anything other than better, then maybe we need to re-evaluate how we go about policing neighborhoods of colour.
I also have friends and family who are police officers. I respect the job that they do on a daily basis. I know the majority of them are well intentioned and are simply following orders. Just because you are pro-black/latino/aboriginal, etc... rights does not mean you are anti-police. People need to remember that.
"9/11 terrorists came from Canada." Even if that were true, talk about missing the forest for the trees! They could have just as easily come to America directly (again, if it were true). Both Canada and the US allow Muslims in. It's nothing but a low blow and a needless insult against our Northern brothers and sisters, whose selfless kindness for us on 9/11 should never be forgotten. All to score political points among the low information electorate. John "bomb Iran" McCain is a liar, sell out, and fake conservative. He's a big reason Obama won in 2008. He was so unelectable and would have been a reckless warmonger.
Um, I appreciate that you value your Canadian neighbors. Really.
But let me assure you, you're singing your libertarian anthem in the wrong place. I won't go into my views of Obama or what kind of a grade I'd give him as POTUS, because we're already a off-topic here, but suffice to say that this Canadian voted for Barack Obama in 2008 AND 2012, and I'd do so again, given the same options. And for what it's worth, I'd bet 10 years' salary that the overwhelming majority of Canadian-Americans voted for Obama, as well.
If you think otherwise, then you don't know your Northern brothers and sistersat all.
Last edited by newdixiegirl; 12-23-2014 at 09:45 AM..
I definitely think white folks have a huge part in any discussion about race. I never intended for this to be an "us" vs "them" type of discussion. Especially someone like yourself who has a vested interest in seeing this take a turn for the better. (BTW, netwit I will always remember your post speaking about how you go out of your way to buy black literature for your black nieces and nephews and how you find it important that they are exposed to that type of writing and history)
As far as aggressive policing is concerned I have a few thoughts. If the statistics are high in predominantly black, Latino and first nation communities that happen to be high crime areas, I can somewhat accept that. The issue is that people of colour are targeted and stopped disproportionately in predominantly white neighborhoods and policing zones as well. So if this has everything to do with population and crime, that last thought throws a wrench into that thinking. We also have to look at how much of a difference this style of policing has truly made. Can we say that targeting folks for petty crimes has made things better, worse or about the same? If the answer is anything other than better, then maybe we need to re-evaluate how we go about policing neighborhoods of colour.
I also have friends and family who are police officers. I respect the job that they do on a daily basis. I know the majority of them are well intentioned and are simply following orders. Just because you are pro-black/latino/aboriginal, etc... rights does not mean you are anti-police. People need to remember that.
Um, I appreciate that you value your Canadian neighbors. Really.
But let me assure you, you're singing your libertarian anthem in the wrong place. I won't go into my views of Obama or what kind of a grade I'd give him as POTUS, because we're already a off-topic here, but suffice to say that this Canadian voted for Barack Obama in 2008 AND 2012, and I'd do so again, given the same options. And for what it's worth, I'd bet 10 years' salary that the overwhelming majority of Canadian-Americans voted for Obama, as well.
If you think otherwise, then you don't know your Northern brothers and sistersat all.
I wouldn't be so sure. It seems many Canadians come to the US for economic reasons and weather (i.e., snowbirds who tend to be of older age). Both of those demographics may be less likely to support Obama than the average Canadian. But I don't know; you may be right after all. I'm not going to argue about Obama. (Let's just say I am not a big fan of his at all and voted against him both times, even at age 18 in 2008. My position on him has been pretty consistent.)
By the way, I am not a "libertarian." I am almost the opposite. I believe in tighter state controls of the economy for the benefit of common citizens (i.e., populism, which I mentioned earlier) and I believe in the importance of tradition and am socially conservative in many respects. I despise corporate greed and how they've sold us all out.
Many liberals sing Canada's praises because they see the government and people as more in line with their views. I like the greater emphasis on the needs of the common man in Canada, which is seen in such things as the healthcare system and whatnot. In my experience, many Canadians are rather conservative personally but have live-and-let-live political views. I also see Canada as having something more of an identity than we have. I feel bad that it's being thrown away in the name of faceless globalism, which is just an expression of the inherently anti-folkish nature of global business. Canadians are also rather patriotic in my experience, which I see as a great thing, of course. Since you combine that with a greater sense of identity and a greater emphasis on the common good rather than special interests, I've always been somewhat envious. That and Canadian weather is great!
Also, I say I support traditional values and I most certainly do, and I do so far more strongly than most. However, I can't ignore the fact that people will naturally have a preconceived notion of what that term means. Among other things, it usually means disapproval to some extent of homosexuality. Honestly, I could write an entire book about my thoughts on this topic and I am very well-informed about it. But for the sake of brevity I will say simply, that while many aspects of the modern gay rights movement are firmly rooted in leftism (particularly the sexual revolution ideology), there's no opposition to homosexuality that cannot be defeated by scientific arguments. I wouldn't say science supports homosexuality per se, but science can be used to understand it as a natural occurrence that needn't be corrected, albeit an aberration: something whose degree of harm is entirely dependent on its scale. I say this because Canada has been better for gays for much of the time I've had an interest in this subject. We are catching up here stateside, but this difference has certainly been one of my many factors that have contributed to the sense of envy I previously mentioned.
Backtracking a bit now, I'm not an expert on Canadians (). These are just my observations, but I've had far more interaction with you all than any other nationality besides Americans. I have friends there. I've visited not just two big cities (Toronto and Montreal) but smaller cities and towns. Drove through rural Ontario a few times to visit friends and the landscape there really reminded me of my home, South Jersey: flat, open spaces. Beautiful country, and plenty of good, rustic folks.
But again, all these things are changing so fast. I hear stories of how Canada is becoming more like the US in terms of nation and identity-destroying corporate greed. If I were Canadian, I'd have a hard time not associating these influences with the pernicious influence of fake American conservatism. But the American people are misled about all this; and in many ways, our hearts are in the right place. I can tell that you are a newcomer to Dixie and I think Dixie has many deeper similarities with Canada when it comes to some of the things I've discussed. You'll have to ignore the superficial political differences to see what I'm getting at. I love Dixie, too, and I think their folkish way of life is what we need more of. Sadly, my area of the country is the worst place when it comes to corporate greed and missing identity (though South Jersey isn't as bad and can be quite good).
Not really. There are just as many, if not more Americans (count me in as one) here on C-D that are quite fond of Canada. Especially the urban city enthusiasts, they love Montreal and Toronto.
I agree with this and posted my opinion that anti-Canadian posts on CD are not reflective of how Americans view Canada. I do believe most Americans are pro Canadian, many in the northern US enjoy trips over the border. As an American I am embarrassed when I see these ignorant post about Canada from other Americans. I try to counter these posts where I can. Its not just Canada either, lots of ignorant posts toward our British friends as well. Again even more of this kind of trolling found in the Europe and World forum as well. It makes us look bad, wish we could stop them. A few trolls should not be able to make an entire nation look like baffoons.
Hey, it's a two way street, daniel. You guys get it worse than anyone, which is completely unfair.
Posters like you and Desert are always welcome here.
Thank you Magnatomicflux. I used to live up on the border, and I spent a fair amount of time going into Canada. I also got your TV, News etc so I learned a lot about Canada that way. I always loved going over there, such nice people and pretty countryside. I guess that is why you occasionally see me in these forums. Yes you are right, we also get lambasted by trolls. It is frustrating for sure, and that is why I hate seeing people from the US do it. I know all it does is anger people, not sure what pleasure trolls get from that.
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