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Old 01-09-2015, 09:25 PM
 
342 posts, read 395,247 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Exactly... In Canada - Vancouver, Toronto and Calgary typically get the highest rankings for most 'liveable' city in the country and also N.A. Than again Montreal (which some would slam for its cold weather, poor infrastructure and feeling more poor than everywhere in the U.S, though I find that hard to believe lol - the U.S isn't just its economically elite cities) generally ranks higher than American cities so yes best is not best for everyone that is for sure.. If you want to be a mover and shaker in the business world typically Canada is not for you vs the U.S but how many of us actually endeavour to be V.P's and CEO's - most of us don't and would sacrifice an extremely well paying job for one that offers a good income yet balanced Quality of Life.. We have to look at who most people are not how some people with elite salaries are or want to be... If you want to have a baby for instance - having the option of going on paid Mat/Pat leave or generally having more vacation time are factors or even living in a society with much greater union penetration etc etc...
It has nothing to with ambition or wanting to be a mover and a shaker. Most immigrants have no interest at all in living in Quebec. They want to live in Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary. Most immigrants consider Quebec the boondocks of Canada and prefer Ontario or the other English Canadian provinces. If you want to see the real test, look at where people want to live. The fact of the matter is that most immigrants to North America want to live in the US, distantly followed by English Canada, and with Quebec as dead last. Let's be honest, how many immigrants just go to Canada because it is the closest thing to America they could get? And how common is it for them to just use Canada as a stop on the way to the US? Even people who move to Quebec often cite the nearness to the US and chance to learn English as an option.

There is also the fact that people have emigrated from Quebec in mass numbers to go to Ontario and other provinces. That HAS to say something. We aren't talking about a trickle of people, we are talking about a mass exodus. When you look at a country and huge numbers are leaving it says more than any quality of life survey. The entire "quality of life" thing is really rubbish because it is totally subjective. I mean, wouldn't someones quality of life significantly lower if they are freezing their butt off in the dark most of the time?

Like others I have a soft spot for Quebec, but this talk about getting a few more days of vacation and these small bonuses making up for all the negatives is rubbish. uebec pays crazy taxes and what, they get daycare if you happen to have a baby? Why not fix the second world infrastructure and lay new roads? It is clear to see the difference between Ontario and Quebec. Who cares if you get a few more days of vacation when you make 3/5 of what the guy across the border in New England makes, and then pay 20% more for everything, including absurd prices for plane tickets. Quebec pays crazy taxes and what, they get daycare if you happen to have a baby? Why not fix the second world infrastructure and lay new roads so they can catch up to Ontario?
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Old 01-09-2015, 09:49 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,947 posts, read 27,354,178 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeMike91 View Post
It has nothing to with ambition or wanting to be a mover and a shaker. Most immigrants have no interest at all in living in Quebec. They want to live in Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary. Most immigrants consider Quebec the boondocks of Canada and prefer Ontario or the other English Canadian provinces. If you want to see the real test, look at where people want to live. The fact of the matter is that most immigrants to North America want to live in the US, distantly followed by English Canada, and with Quebec as dead last. Let's be honest, how many immigrants just go to Canada because it is the closest thing to America they could get? And how common is it for them to just use Canada as a stop on the way to the US? Even people who move to Quebec often cite the nearness to the US and chance to learn English as an option.

There is also the fact that people have emigrated from Quebec in mass numbers to go to Ontario and other provinces. That HAS to say something. We aren't talking about a trickle of people, we are talking about a mass exodus. When you look at a country and huge numbers are leaving it says more than any quality of life survey. The entire "quality of life" thing is really rubbish because it is totally subjective. I mean, wouldn't someones quality of life significantly lower if they are freezing their butt off in the dark most of the time?

Like others I have a soft spot for Quebec, but this talk about getting a few more days of vacation and these small bonuses making up for all the negatives is rubbish. uebec pays crazy taxes and what, they get daycare if you happen to have a baby? Why not fix the second world infrastructure and lay new roads? It is clear to see the difference between Ontario and Quebec. Who cares if you get a few more days of vacation when you make 3/5 of what the guy across the border in New England makes, and then pay 20% more for everything, including absurd prices for plane tickets. Quebec pays crazy taxes and what, they get daycare if you happen to have a baby? Why not fix the second world infrastructure and lay new roads so they can catch up to Ontario?

Quebec actually gets more immigrants in total numbers than any other province except Ontario. Although this is somewhat normal, since it is the second-biggest province in population and has the second-biggest city. But at some times in recent history, BC was getting more immigrants than Quebec.

Relative to population, Quebec takes in more immigrants that the good old United States of America.

In an average year, Quebec takes in more immigrants in sheer numbers than most US states with a comparable or slightly higher population (VA, PA, OH, MI, IL, GA, NC). It also takes in as many immigrants as New York, which has double Quebec's population (just under 50,000 for each).

Still relative to population, Quebec takes in more immigrants than the immigrant boom states of CA, FL and TX.
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Old 01-09-2015, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,141,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeMike91 View Post
It has nothing to with ambition or wanting to be a mover and a shaker. Most immigrants have no interest at all in living in Quebec. They want to live in Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary. Most immigrants consider Quebec the boondocks of Canada and prefer Ontario or the other English Canadian provinces. If you want to see the real test, look at where people want to live. The fact of the matter is that most immigrants to North America want to live in the US, distantly followed by English Canada, and with Quebec as dead last. Let's be honest, how many immigrants just go to Canada because it is the closest thing to America they could get? And how common is it for them to just use Canada as a stop on the way to the US? Even people who move to Quebec often cite the nearness to the US and chance to learn English as an option.
Great more people "want" to immigrate to the U.S because it is a much larger country than Canada is and probably significantly more a part of the world's psyche than Canada would be.. I think in terms of relative percentages Canada takes in more immigrants.. Aside from that, perception isn't always reality anyway so your point escapes me.. Q.O.L surveys practically always favour Canadian cities over U.S one's... Including Montreal but yes - generally speaking Toronto, Vancouver and Calgary are almost always ranked higher in Q.O.L than Montreal and in every case for CAD cities inclusive of YUL higher than American cities...Everything else is just largely personal 'preference' by certain individuals - i'd say those preferences skew a certain way for those who are indeed in the higher income brackets... Anwyay, I'll throw more weight at Q.O.L survey's which take into account inequality than I will measures that favour the top 10 percent or their wannabes and will certainly throw more weight at them than preferences and opinions of a CD forummer. Personally, I wouldn't say that I would be unhappy in cities such as Boston, NYC or S.F - as long as i'm making decent coin...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeMike91 View Post
The entire "quality of life" thing is really rubbish because it is totally subjective. I mean, wouldn't someones quality of life significantly lower if they are freezing their butt off in the dark most of the time?
So Q.O.L 'thing' is rubbish as are the studies and they are 'subjective' - ok well so are opinions I suppose.. Oh wait - your opinion holds more weight because you've lived in every major city and even every medium sized city in both Canada and the U.S... Have you lived in Cleveland or Birmingham Al or how about Charleston W.V..

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeMike91 View Post
Like others I have a soft spot for Quebec, but this talk about getting a few more days of vacation and these small bonuses making up for all the negatives is rubbish. uebec pays crazy taxes and what, they get daycare if you happen to have a baby? Why not fix the second world infrastructure and lay new roads? It is clear to see the difference between Ontario and Quebec. Who cares if you get a few more days of vacation when you make 3/5 of what the guy across the border in New England makes, and then pay 20% more for everything, including absurd prices for plane tickets. Quebec pays crazy taxes and what, they get daycare if you happen to have a baby? Why not fix the second world infrastructure and lay new roads so they can catch up to Ontario?
Soft spots are irrelavent really - Montreal does quite well in Q.O.L studies...As for how much people make in Montreal - well it is still in a first world country and you're putting too much emphasis on some crappy roads.. For every comment about a crappy road in Montreal I could make an equally compelling argument for a better transit system in Montreal than any other city in the U.S/Canada save for NYC...As for pay higher pay are you referring to GDP per capita, median family incomes etc etc?? What is your measuring stick? I think if you take the average family and compare that family in Montreal to any other major city in N.A the differences from purely an economic difference aren't all that great and that is JUST about money - what about all the other 'intangibles' that exist in Montreal... Perhaps those living in it see those intangibles that gives many a soft spot as proping the place up in the Q.O.L department... Life isn't just about making more than 6 figures or bust for most people or families.... Read about what the sweet spot is for a family income and how making more money than that won't make a family happier and how the laws of diminishing returns kick in.....
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Old 01-09-2015, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,947 posts, read 27,354,178 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeMike91 View Post

There is also the fact that people have emigrated from Quebec in mass numbers to go to Ontario and other provinces. That HAS to say something. We aren't talking about a trickle of people, we are talking about a mass exodus.
The outmigration from Quebec that occurred is the result of a particular situation and was massively concentrated in the anglophone community.

It is not entirely dissimilar to white flight whereby a specific group at one point felt that all of sudden everything had changed (when they never expected it to) and the ground basically fell out from under them.

I am not sure it's really related to general quality of life issues, unless the possibility for anglophones to live entirely in English with no ''hindrance'' (sic) from another language is an important quality of life factor. Which I suppose it might be for some people. Which I guess handicaps the quality of life of places like Vienna and Geneva as well.
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Old 01-09-2015, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,947 posts, read 27,354,178 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Great more people "want" to immigrate to the U.S because it is a much larger country than Canada is and probably significantly more a part of the world's psyche than Canada would be.. I think in terms of relative percentages Canada takes in more immigrants.. Aside from that, perception isn't always reality anyway so your point escapes me.. Q.O.L surveys practically always favour Canadian cities over U.S one's... Including Montreal but yes - generally speaking Toronto, Vancouver and Calgary are almost always ranked higher in Q.O.L than Montreal and in every case for CAD cities inclusive of YUL higher than American cities...Everything else is just largely personal 'preference' by certain individuals - i'd say those preferences skew a certain way for those who are indeed in the higher income brackets... Anwyay, I'll throw more weight at Q.O.L survey's - than preferences and opinions, I wouldn't say that I would be unhappy in cities such as Boston, NYC or S.F - as long as i'm making decent coin...



So Q.O.L 'thing' is rubbish as are the studies and they are 'subjective' - ok well so are opinions I suppose.. Oh wait - your opinion holds more weight because you've lived in every major city and even every medium sized city in both Canada and the U.S... Have you lived in Cleveland or Birmingham Al or how about Charleston W.V..



Soft spots are irrelavent really - Montreal does quite well in Q.O.L studies...As for how much people make in Montreal - well it is still in a first world country and you're putting too much emphasis on some crappy roads.. For every comment about a crappy road in Montreal I could make an equally compelling argument for a better transit system in Montreal than any other city in the U.S/Canada save for NYC...As for pay higher pay are you referring to GDP per capita, median family incomes etc etc?? What is your measuring stick? I think if you take the average family and compare that family in Montreal to any other major city in N.A the differences from purely an economic difference aren't all that great and that is JUST about money - what about all the other 'intangibles' that exist in Montreal... Perhaps those living in it see those intangibles that gives many a soft spot as proping the place up in the Q.O.L department... Life isn't just about making more than 6 figures or bust....
The average family incomes in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver are all about the same: around 70,000 Canadian dollars a year. Taxes are higher in Montreal but most other things are cheaper including housing which is much cheaper than in the other two cities and is of course a family's biggest expense.
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Old 01-09-2015, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,141,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
The average family incomes in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver are all about the same: around 70,000 Canadian dollars a year. Taxes are higher in Montreal but most other things are cheaper including housing which is much cheaper than in the other two cities and is of course a family's biggest expense.
Yes this is true.. Of course, there are other positive aspects of the 'other two cities' and that is the wealth generated by many as a result of investment in R.E.. You may be shelling out more on housing but yer getting something in return in time.. Assuming the proverbial bubble doesn't explode but yes - I would say median family incomes in Montreal aren't that much different than most any other major city in Canamerica.... If my partner and I were to find jobs with the same pay in Montreal than Toronto we would probably pay less for rent... All the 'other' things I don't really know.. I found Montreal more expensive for gas and generally groceries but admittedly I don't know how to save a buck in YUL like I can in YYZ - i'm the bargain shopper extraordinaire and know how to save coin in T.O..

One thing for sure and people can attack Q.O.L surveys until they are blue in the face with varying levels of success and that is that the big 5 cities in Canada do better than any of the big 5 in the U.S including Montreal....
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Old 01-09-2015, 10:27 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,141,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Quebec actually gets more immigrants in total numbers than any other province except Ontario. Although this is somewhat normal, since it is the second-biggest province in population and has the second-biggest city. But at some times in recent history, BC was getting more immigrants than Quebec.

Relative to population, Quebec takes in more immigrants that the good old United States of America.

In an average year, Quebec takes in more immigrants in sheer numbers than most US states with a comparable or slightly higher population (VA, PA, OH, MI, IL, GA, NC). It also takes in as many immigrants as New York, which has double Quebec's population (just under 50,000 for each).

Still relative to population, Quebec takes in more immigrants than the immigrant boom states of CA, FL and TX.
Yes and lets face it - for someone who is an immigrant from a Francophonie country, Quebec would be an excellent choice! Well hey, It would be for soooo many of course but i'm just saying from a language and cultural perspective.. I would invite IlikeMike to live in Casablanca, Algiers, Tunis or dare I say even French cities for a year and than complain about living in Montreal... Certainly if I were from one of the cities I mentioned, i'd probably find more appeal with QC than I would the vast majority of States or other CAD provinces unless I really landed a great job in those places and I was someone who has a strong desire to make a splash with my career and would be supported.

I personally wouldn't complain about moving from Toronto to Montreal.. I like both cities but as an Anglo I'd need to learn french and than of course the position that I would need to secure would need to pay the same which isn't easy to do because I make quite a bit more than an average income..

Last edited by fusion2; 01-09-2015 at 10:38 PM..
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Old 01-09-2015, 10:44 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,263,797 times
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Originally Posted by johnathanc View Post
The problem is that it is very difficult for someone to learn French or German or Mandarin or any other language later in life. The time commitment is huge considering work, family, and other personal commitments. For most English speakers, it would require an element of full immersion which would set back one's career as well, and is difficult to do when you have mouths to feed. Don't take me wrong, I wish I could learn another language at this point but I just don't have a lot of free time. I know of my sister and a couple of others who moved to Montreal when they were single to learn French and potentially live there long-term. Unfortunately, none of them where successful in this attempted transition, both socially and career wise, and ended up moving back home with not so great reviews about their experience. So I hear your point but it's just easier said than done in practice.
Despite their amicability, the Quebecois form a society that can be very difficult to assimilate into. Unlike English Canada and other new world nations, Quebecois society has only recently entered an era of trying to integrate immigrants. The Quebecois integrated only a smidgen of immigrants since 1760, and most of these were the impoverished Irish Catholic peasants who landed in Quebec during the mid-19th century. Typically speaking, immigrants who came to Quebec either passed through on the way to the west, or else they assimilated to the anglophone minority. This led to a very homogenous population. Other than recent immigrants, the Quebecois can trace their ancestry directly back to the original colonists such as the Filles du Roi. This homogeneity has led to a populace sharing a relatively limited number of uniquely Quebecois surnames. Integrating immigrants is a new thing for the Quebecois society. In this way it's current experience with immigrants more resembles a European nation rather than a new world nation.

Another thing that sets apart integration in Quebec from English Canada is the language. The form of French that is expected to be learned is very different from the form of French that is known internationally. Français standard is what is utilized in the vast majority of French media. Even in Quebec, many shows are in standard French, including those that are dubbed American shows. The problem with this is that people have virtually no exposure to Quebec French outside of Quebec and it's immediate surrounding regions. To further complicate matters, French teachers in Quebec often mimic standard French to some degree, in order to teach "proper" pronunciation. As a result, international students may be left in the dark when it comes to French as it is spoken by the common inhabitants of Quebec. Newscasters, college professors, and others who are speaking the "proper" form of French (i.e. adjusting the Quebec accent to more resemble a European) are relatively easy to understand, but when it comes to the construction worker, cashier, or plumber on the street, Quebec French can be very difficult to understand.

Unlike English in the ROC, French in Quebec relies on being propped up by the government. In Quebec, French lacks a certain magnetic attraction that pulls newcomers into francophone society. In the non-French speaking world there are no hit French-language Quebecois movies and no popular French-language Quebecois music. In the international media, the only famous Quebecois are those who create their works in English: Celine Dion, Simple Plan, and a small handful of others. Because of these reasons, English almost feels like the defacto primary language of Montreal. Only with massive government investment is French able to maintain it's appearance as the dominant language in what is effectively a bilingual city. The government has succeed in stopping (or slowing) the decline of French that was evident before the 90's, but has failed to create that cultural pull; the same cultural pull that leads a teenager in Finland to speak impeccable American English. Learning French as a newcomer in Quebec's primary city can still feel more like duty rather than an inevitability.
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Old 01-09-2015, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,947 posts, read 27,354,178 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Yes this is true.. Of course, there are other positive aspects of the 'other two cities' and that is the wealth generated by many as a result of investment in R.E.. You may be shelling out more on housing but yer getting something in return in time.. Assuming the proverbial bubble doesn't explode but yes - I would say median family incomes in Montreal aren't that much different than most any other major city in Canamerica.... If my partner and I were to find jobs with the same pay in Montreal than Toronto we would probably pay less for rent... All the 'other' things I don't really know.. I found Montreal more expensive for gas and generally groceries but admittedly I don't know how to save a buck in YUL like I can in YYZ - i'm the bargain shopper extraordinaire and know how to save coin in T.O..

One thing for sure and people can attack Q.O.L surveys until they are blue in the face with varying levels of success and that is that the big 5 cities in Canada do better than any of the big 5 in the U.S including Montreal....
Gas is one of the only things (other than taxes) that is cheaper in Toronto than in Montreal. Food and clothes are probably a wash for locals who know where to look for deals. Transit, restaurants, bars, daycare, beer, etc. are almost always cheaper in Montreal.
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Old 01-09-2015, 10:49 PM
 
873 posts, read 814,965 times
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In regards to the weather, most of Canada has the same weather or colder weather than Quebec, so that's not really a deciding factor for a Canadian unless an American is deciding to move to Quebec.
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