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Old 01-10-2015, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Canada
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I think the difference between the reactions does in part come down to different cultural contexts. France and Quebec independently, and at different times, went from being fairly theocratic Catholic societies to having Catholicism be rejected, become "banal" in the words of Charb of Charlie Hebdo, and take on a smaller role in society. CH was from that cultural tradition of secularism and fought to do the same thing to Islam in France as happened to Catholicism. I think the French and Quebeckers get that, and don't see it as super controversial because of what happened to their own religion.

Anglos come from a pretty different tradition, although Quebec Anglos are something of a middle breed and the Gazette's decision has been pretty controversial in the community, and from what I've seen on facebook a slight majority disagrees with it, so I'm not sure it would have occurred if the newspaper were run by a Quebec based entity instead of being owned and run by Postmedia which is a corporation from outside the province and the local Anglo culture that it serves. Anglos (maybe not so much Americans) have a history of empire, and that empire was maintained more or less by allowing other groups within it a measure of autonomy, tolerance, and non-interference. Moreover, the history of sometimes oppressing minorities weighs very heavily, and disparaging Islam thus feels like picking on Muslims and doing something to them that has not occurred to the mainstream culture itself. Secularism in the Anglo world has been a much more gradual process, with no great feeling that it was something "society" as a whole was experiencing. They were starting from a less extreme position, so there was never a need to adopt such a muscular form of secularism to rebel against religion. As such, turning that sort of muscular secularism against an "other" feels like picking on them, and stirs up memories of intolerance and unjust ethnic strife most would shy away from.

For the record, the English CBC had an article on the different reactions to Charlie Hebdo between English and French media so at least readers of that source would have noticed the difference, although I haven't read any other English media sources in the last few days.
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Old 01-11-2015, 06:47 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIMBAM View Post
I think the difference between the reactions does in part come down to different cultural contexts. France and Quebec independently, and at different times, went from being fairly theocratic Catholic societies to having Catholicism be rejected, become "banal" in the words of Charb of Charlie Hebdo, and take on a smaller role in society. CH was from that cultural tradition of secularism and fought to do the same thing to Islam in France as happened to Catholicism. I think the French and Quebeckers get that, and don't see it as super controversial because of what happened to their own religion.

Anglos come from a pretty different tradition, although Quebec Anglos are something of a middle breed and the Gazette's decision has been pretty controversial in the community, and from what I've seen on facebook a slight majority disagrees with it, so I'm not sure it would have occurred if the newspaper were run by a Quebec based entity instead of being owned and run by Postmedia which is a corporation from outside the province and the local Anglo culture that it serves. Anglos (maybe not so much Americans) have a history of empire, and that empire was maintained more or less by allowing other groups within it a measure of autonomy, tolerance, and non-interference. Moreover, the history of sometimes oppressing minorities weighs very heavily, and disparaging Islam thus feels like picking on Muslims and doing something to them that has not occurred to the mainstream culture itself. Secularism in the Anglo world has been a much more gradual process, with no great feeling that it was something "society" as a whole was experiencing. They were starting from a less extreme position, so there was never a need to adopt such a muscular form of secularism to rebel against religion. As such, turning that sort of muscular secularism against an "other" feels like picking on them, and stirs up memories of intolerance and unjust ethnic strife most would shy away from.

For the record, the English CBC had an article on the different reactions to Charlie Hebdo between English and French media so at least readers of that source would have noticed the difference, although I haven't read any other English media sources in the last few days.
Good post as usual. Typical of someone with a foot in both Canadian solitudes.
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Old 01-11-2015, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
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La Marseillaise played before the Montreal Canadiens hockey game on Saturday night:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRyD46HEhL4

If you listen at the start you can hear the crowd chanting ''Charlie''.
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Old 01-12-2015, 04:33 PM
 
Location: Somewhere flat in Mississippi
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Do Quebeckers have a taste for Charlie Hebdo or similar satire?
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Old 01-12-2015, 04:43 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo View Post
Do Quebeckers have a taste for Charlie Hebdo or similar satire?
We don't anything as extreme as that here, but things are definitely much less PC here than elsewhere in Canada and USA.
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Old 01-13-2015, 06:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awsmith View Post
In my mind it is dishonest to show the milder cartoons like the one above and not at least describe the more offensive ones. Many of this magazine's cartoons couldn't be shown in English Canada because of their extreme vulgarity. Perhaps Quebec is culturally less sensitive to such things.
By "extreme vulgarity" do you mean something like the one below?

moderator cut: image removed

(This one isn't about Muhammad; I don't know the exact context but I think it lampooned the Catholic Church's role in opposing same-sex marriage in France.)

I don't know if Quebec is less sensitive to such things although I wouldn't expect to see such a cartoon there either. But the cartoon I linked to in the OP is definitely quite mild.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
Charlie Hebdo printed circulation is only 45,000, not much for a country of 66 million. Are there any stats for online clicks for them? I'm wondering if it's fair to associate it so much with French and Quebecois culture? Is it perhaps the difference in the "French language media " culture, rather than the population as a whole?
Did the major newspapers in France, Le Monde etc print the cartoons?
I don't think we could see something like Charlie Hebdo in Quebec, and even in France such an anarchist, far-left publication is quite unusual. I don't know for sure but I expect that Le Monde did not have any problem showing their cartoons given that it was the subject of the news.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIMBAM View Post
Anglos come from a pretty different tradition, although Quebec Anglos are something of a middle breed and the Gazette's decision has been pretty controversial in the community, and from what I've seen on facebook a slight majority disagrees with it, so I'm not sure it would have occurred if the newspaper were run by a Quebec based entity instead of being owned and run by Postmedia which is a corporation from outside the province and the local Anglo culture that it serves.
This is an interesting thought.

Quote:
Moreover, the history of sometimes oppressing minorities weighs very heavily, and disparaging Islam thus feels like picking on Muslims and doing something to them that has not occurred to the mainstream culture itself. Secularism in the Anglo world has been a much more gradual process, with no great feeling that it was something "society" as a whole was experiencing. They were starting from a less extreme position, so there was never a need to adopt such a muscular form of secularism to rebel against religion. As such, turning that sort of muscular secularism against an "other" feels like picking on them, and stirs up memories of intolerance and unjust ethnic strife most would shy away from.
That's very interesting as well, and it may be part of the explanation why Quebec and the rest of Canada do not have the same view of secularism.

On the other hand, while anglophones, in Canada as well as the US, may tend view disparaging Islam (or even doing something which in itself is not disparaging, but which Muslims often disapprove, such as depicting the Prophet) as an attack on Muslims themselves motivated by racism, I feel that other religions don't necessarily benefit from the same protection. The Catholic Church, for example, is frequently condemned as a force for evil in the world, and I believe I've even heard people say that in light of the sex scandals in the Church, anybody who's a Catholic today is an apologist for child sex abuse. Is this because Catholics aren't perceived to be a minority in need of protection?

Quote:
For the record, the English CBC had an article on the different reactions to Charlie Hebdo between English and French media so at least readers of that source would have noticed the difference, although I haven't read any other English media sources in the last few days.
OK, thanks for this, it answers my question. Do you have a link? I'd like to see how they framed the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
We don't anything as extreme as that here, but things are definitely much less PC here than elsewhere in Canada and USA.
You say this often, but I'd like to understand what you mean better. It's well-known that Quebecers strive for consensus and for appreciation, unlike the French who make debating into a national sport and don't really care about what we think of them. Quebecers are likely to be really nice because they want you to like them. Is it that political correctness is a form of politeness that speaks to a particularly anglo North American sensibility? (And how do we define political correctness to start with?)

ETA: I will say that it's possible that this tragedy had a more immediate feeling for Quebec media since many of their journalists actually personally knew people at Charlie Hebdo. (Le Devoir's Jean-François Nadeau, for example, delivered an eulogy for his friend Charb.) While to anglophone journalists, even The Gazette's, it's a tragedy that might as well have happened in, say, Japan, or Greece. A first-world democratic society, but one which isn't that close to them, and toward which they may even harbour some suspicion.

Last edited by Marka; 01-19-2015 at 12:11 AM..
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:08 AM
 
Location: Somewhere flat in Mississippi
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I think CH's influence is based primarily on who reads it rather than how many.
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,962 posts, read 27,410,308 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post


You say this often, but I'd like to understand what you mean better. It's well-known that Quebecers strive for consensus and for appreciation, unlike the French who make debating into a national sport and don't really care about what we think of them. Quebecers are likely to be really nice because they want you to like them. Is it that political correctness is a form of politeness that speaks to a particularly anglo North American sensibility? (And how do we define political correctness to start with?)

.
Pourtant, it's not really that hard to see that Québécois are much less PC than other Canadians and Americans.

Both of these examples below sparked controversies, but they were still aired by the network in question - which happens to be a public broadcaster to boot! In Anglo-Canada stuff like that would have been censored and if it would have been live, the person monitoring the English CBC's seven-second (or whatever) delay button would have probably had a heart attack!

The first item is in French only, the second has English subtitles.

Le poète Claude Péloquin est-il cette fois allé trop loin? | ICI.Radio-Canada.ca


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feLQQBkDOdo
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,962 posts, read 27,410,308 times
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Another example. Last post from me on this page here:

How politically correct are people in your country?
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:46 AM
 
16,720 posts, read 14,739,905 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post

I don't have the answers, but I'm wondering what I would do if I were an editor of a newspaper. Part of me would love to shove back in the faces of the people who did this, but part of me would worry about inciting more violence. Tough choice.
Yes, but no too tough. I'd rather save the lives of my staff; then again, they knew what they were writing and drawing, it's not as if it was a surprise when the publication came out. Not to say that they had it coming to them...but, at the very least, they were naïve to think nothing would happen.
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