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View Poll Results: Is Canada better without Quebec?
Yes, Canada is better off without Quebec 55 41.67%
No, Canada is better off with Quebec 77 58.33%
Voters: 132. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-09-2015, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Canada
325 posts, read 295,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I don't know why this is hard for individuals to understand.. Per capita income does not reflect distribution of wealth.. It simply takes all the wealth of a place and distributes it evenly to get a number - in reality this doesn't happen and in most instances the wealth disproportionally favours a small percentage.. This is why Median incomes are far better to determine how the average person lives in any place as opposed to Per Capita GDP..

As far as the rest of your post is concerned its nonsense...Quebec's GDP is 363 Billion dollars are you telling me this is mostly from English Canada?? Nonsense!!!

List of Canadian provinces and territories by gross domestic product - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I don't think he means money from outside of Quebec but money from the Anglo Quebecer minority. They have historically been much richer than francos and have been the driving force behind business in Quebec. They have been hit hit the hardest by Quebecs taxes (highest in N. America) which ironically goes to driving them out with the language police. As anglos leave Quebec's economy continues it's decline and there are less people with money to tax.
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Old 02-09-2015, 06:21 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,170,425 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modernrebel View Post
I don't think he means money from outside of Quebec but money from the Anglo Quebecer minority. They have historically been much richer than francos and have been the driving force behind business in Quebec. They have been hit hit the hardest by Quebecs taxes (highest in N. America) which ironically goes to driving them out with the language police. As anglos leave Quebec's economy continues it's decline and there are less people with money to tax.
Quebec's population as of Jan 1 2014 was 8.18 million people

Demographics of Quebec - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Within the link is a table showing that Quebec's population yoy has not declined and has only risen since 1851.
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Old 02-09-2015, 08:21 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,699 posts, read 8,509,065 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Quebec's population as of Jan 1 2014 was 8.18 million people

Demographics of Quebec - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Within the link is a table showing that Quebec's population yoy has not declined and has only risen since 1851.
He didn't say people were leaving Quebec generally, he said that the Anglo Quebecer minority was. Which is somewhat true, if a bit out of date. The nadir was in 2001 and the English speaking population is fairly stable these days. People from the old minority do trickle out and get replaced by Anglos from elsewhere meaning a roughly stable, even slowly growing, population.

Last edited by BIMBAM; 02-09-2015 at 08:29 PM..
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Old 02-09-2015, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,170,425 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIMBAM View Post
He didn't say people were leaving Quebec generally, he said that the Anglo Quebecer minority was. Which is true.
Right but as people leave others come in so there are net more Quebecer's and that is your new and expanded tax base... Q.C YOY has risen in population as has its GDP.. I think those people are more than capable of making for a stronger Q.C..
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Old 02-09-2015, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,699 posts, read 8,509,065 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Right but as people leave others come in so there are net more Quebecer's and that is your new and expanded tax base... Q.C YOY has risen in population as has its GDP.. I think those people are more than capable of making for a stronger Q.C..
I agree, the idea that English Quebecers were holding up the whole Quebec economy is actually pretty ridiculous even if there's a kernel of truth that many of those who went down the road were highly skilled, the community's "best and brightest" who had options. Today's Anglo-Quebeckers are not more prosperous then the average Quebecker. Anglo-Quebeckers are actually a disadvantaged minority with way higher rates of unemployment then Francophone Quebeckers, and this despite 25% of the population holding a university degree vs. 15% for Francophone Quebeckers. Moreover, Anglo-Quebeckers are more likely to be impoverished and on average have a lower salary then Francophone Quebeckers despite so many living in Montreal where jobs are presumably higher paying. Because of the history, there is a persistent myth that this community is a privileged elite, but the modern day truth is that this is not the case and hasn't been for quite some time, the community is in fact a disadvantaged one. The legacy of the past, however, and the visibility of places like Westmount, mean that most view it not as it is, but as it once was.

http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/com-com.nsf/eng/01233.html

I'll also note that I edited my last post, but not before you could comment. That too seems to be a "view of the past". The community reached its nadir in the early 2000's and is no longer shrinking in raw numbers.
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Old 02-09-2015, 09:30 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,170,425 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIMBAM View Post
I agree, the idea that English Quebecers were holding up the whole Quebec economy is actually pretty ridiculous even if there's a kernel of truth that many of those who went down the road were highly skilled, the community's "best and brightest" who had options. Today's Anglo-Quebeckers are not more prosperous then the average Quebecker. Anglo-Quebeckers are actually a disadvantaged minority with way higher rates of unemployment then Francophone Quebeckers, and this despite 25% of the population holding a university degree vs. 15% for Francophone Quebeckers. Moreover, Anglo-Quebeckers are more likely to be impoverished and on average have a lower salary then Francophone Quebeckers despite so many living in Montreal where jobs are presumably higher paying. Because of the history, there is a persistent myth that this community is a privileged elite, but the modern day truth is that this is not the case and hasn't been for quite some time, the community is in fact a disadvantaged one. The legacy of the past, however, and the visibility of places like Westmount, mean that most view it not as it is, but as it once was.

http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/com-com.nsf/eng/01233.html

I'll also note that I edited my last post, but not before you could comment. That too seems to be a "view of the past". The community reached its nadir in the early 2000's and is no longer shrinking in raw numbers.
Thanks for this information and insight Bimbam! I've looked at your edited post in combination with this one so the clarification is welcome and appreciated.
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Old 02-10-2015, 12:15 AM
 
Location: Canada
4,699 posts, read 8,509,065 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Thanks for this information and insight Bimbam! I've looked at your edited post in combination with this one so the clarification is welcome and appreciated.
It was even something of a surprise for me until I looked up the numbers and confirmed information I'd heard years before. The narrative of the community being a privileged elite with a dwindling population is a strong one and I admit that as an Anglo-Quebecker myself who does come from a privileged background and who did recently leave for BC it was easy to fall into it, but raw data helps one keep perspective, my story is not the story of my community at large. That said, I'd think most of us would be surprised to hear it, even though we know about the challenges we face as a minority most still look at our community through the lens of our collective historical memory and do not see it as it truly is - socioeconomically disadvantaged. This is particularly easy to do in light of the high educational attainment and urban character of the community, and the perceived class associations that come with those traits, even if they statistically don't translate into economic success easily in practice.
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Old 02-10-2015, 05:22 AM
 
Location: Canada
325 posts, read 295,840 times
Reputation: 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIMBAM View Post
It was even something of a surprise for me until I looked up the numbers and confirmed information I'd heard years before. The narrative of the community being a privileged elite with a dwindling population is a strong one and I admit that as an Anglo-Quebecker myself who does come from a privileged background and who did recently leave for BC it was easy to fall into it, but raw data helps one keep perspective, my story is not the story of my community at large. That said, I'd think most of us would be surprised to hear it, even though we know about the challenges we face as a minority most still look at our community through the lens of our collective historical memory and do not see it as it truly is - socioeconomically disadvantaged. This is particularly easy to do in light of the high educational attainment and urban character of the community, and the perceived class associations that come with those traits, even if they statistically don't translate into economic success easily in practice.
True, but the richest areas are still Anglo (westmount) and the traditional Anglo elite is a priviliged minority economically who tends to be likely to own shops or homes handed down from their parents and other similar things. This traditional elite has left (over half since the 70's) and the anglos who came in are mostly Bohemian liberal arts minded people, who are not economically powerful. I would be careful to put these groups together and call them all with the labels Anglos, when they are really two socioeconomically different groups. I think youll agree that Quebec nationalism has come at the expense of the traditional Anglo minority who have been inentionally driven out.
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Old 02-10-2015, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,962 posts, read 27,422,840 times
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I think the contemporary reality of the anglo community in Quebec is that it's "weak in the middle". It has the poorer and working class segment that has been talked about, and on the other end it's true that even today the top 10 or top 100 richest people in Quebec are disproportionately anglo. But it should be pointed out that the top rung doesn't have that many people in it to begin with.

Even if there are 1000 or even 5000 uber-rich anglo families in Quebec, that's still a drop in the bucket in the anglo population of 700,000.

The weak middle I was talking about is your bank managers, your regional managers for, say, Bell Canada or Canadian Tire, your director of health and safety for some factory somewhere.

Anglos have largely disappeared from these types of jobs in Quebec as they tend to require native speaker (as opposed to passable) French, and any non-French Canadian diversity in these positions is now not usually from anglos, but from people from francophonie countries who possess those language skills fairly naturally.

The only place the middle is holding up well in Anglo-Quebec is in the anglo institutional sector: education and health, and in Montreal, the media and cultural sector.

It's too early to say whether or not the younger generations of anglos (whose French tends to be better than their elders) will be able to more fully invest the "middle sector" of employment in Quebec.

But if my observations are true, it's a double-edged sword as some of those anglos who are extremely proficient in French also tend to slip over to the francophone side, hang out with francophone friends, have francophone spouses, and then raise kids who will go to French as opposed to English school.

Even here in the Outaouais right next to Ontario, it's very noticeable how the people who are in anglophone-francophone marriages primarily have kids who are culturally francophone. This is true even of a lot of families where the anglophone parent doesn't speak much French. The kids will of course know English, but out and about in the community, in school and with their friends they most definitely act like francophones.

My kids have a good number of friends like this.
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Old 02-12-2015, 06:00 AM
 
34,475 posts, read 41,589,827 times
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AJ, Anglos in Quebec have left the Building, they are no longer a relevant factor in Quebec, they represent a mere 8% of Quebecs Population , have no representation and no power, most are planning on leaving or have already left, those that stay do so for financial reasons or they have become so assimilated they are now defacto francophones.
Seems the powers that be through draconian linguistic rules and regulations have achieved their dream of a pure French homeland. Its now time for Quebec to take the next step and leave the nest.
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