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View Poll Results: Is Canada better without Quebec?
Yes, Canada is better off without Quebec 55 41.67%
No, Canada is better off with Quebec 77 58.33%
Voters: 132. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-23-2015, 07:35 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,947 posts, read 27,348,673 times
Reputation: 8603

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
I'm just an Amerk, mostly of Pennsylvania German extraction, but I have made regular visits to Canada over many years, and I've been fortunate to have maintained a 20-year friendship with a group of Quebec-based Asian-Canadian immigrants -- one group that hasn't been heard from much in this discussion, at least as yet.

.
Well, nothing against them and of course they are entitled to have their say, but they number about 250,000 out of a population of over 8 million. And a chunk of that 250 k are kids adopted in infancy by French Canadian families and therefore indistinguishable culturally, socially and linguistically from the majority francophone population.

So that's why you don't hear their "unique" perspective on this very much.
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Old 01-23-2015, 07:48 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,947 posts, read 27,348,673 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modernrebel View Post
You sound like a smart guy, which is what makes comments like this almost unbelievable for Anglos.

It shouldn't be hard to figure out. Most Quebecois regularly threaten the disintegration of Canada. I know because I am one. In Italy/Russia/China/India/Brazil/Japan/insertcountry do you think that people who routinely threaten the break up the country are warmly received? Quebec basically holds Canada hostage in order to meet demands that are suitable for Quebec. In most countries tanks roll in and crush the supporters of movement and voila, no more separatist sentiment.

This is like having a member of your household, who's primary objective is the amassing of all power in their own hands at the expense of everyone else. They pay the least rent, and in fact are constantly broke. They rely on the other members of the house to bail them out. Yet they make endless demands, and if they are not met then they will destroy the house. Sound like a guy who is going to be popular? No? Well now you see how Quebec looks. If it is good for Ontario, Alberta, Manitoba, or other provinces doesn't matter. Only Quebec and what is good for Quebec matters, and the general attitude is screw the rest of Canada, let them eat cake. Perfect example of why Canadians regularly don't trust Quebec:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsYjFhf7tlo

Notice that Gilles Duceppe, the leader of a party whos goal is to break up Canada, is courteously given a voice in this debate, yet he only cares about Quebec? No concern for Canada, only for Quebec. Demand after demand. And if Quebec does not get its way, then the breakup of Canada is the threat. Try to understand that Canadians have pride in Canada. It is our country. We care about Canada and feel like it is our nation and our home. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACISM AGAINST QUEBEC. Please stop saying this. I am so tired of hearing that Anglos dont get Quebec because theyare racist against Quebecois. Black people and Jews are targets for racism. Does some prejudice exist against Quebecois? Yes, of course, but it is not RACISM. The Quebecois and Canadians are both mostly white and from the same race. Caucasian. The victim mentality of Quebec being the poor victim of Canadian prejudices is old and outdated and basically a pathetic crutch. In 1970, OK, but today few Canadians are prejudiced against Quebecois, unless they act in a way that deserves it.

If there was a group in Quebec whos main goal is the breakup of Quebec, I GUARANTEE it would not be received warmly.
I am not a supporter nor a fan of the Bloc, but I have followed goings-on on Parliament Hill closely enough (very closely in fact a few years ago as part of work) and if you are "progressive" minded Canadian having the Bloc there was a positive addition to the House and made Canada a better place as they supported and usually helped push forward stuff that was less militaristic, and more egalitarian and ecological, to name just those areas. Of course they did it from a Quebec-centric viewpoint but they certainly didn't block anything that was good for all of Canada (in their view) if it was good for Quebec as well, simply out of spite and throw a wrench into the federal partliamentary machine.
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Old 01-23-2015, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,947 posts, read 27,348,673 times
Reputation: 8603
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post
Entirely serious. Let's go back to the Meech Lake Agreement since Acajack mentioned it. Just to give one example, during the public commission phase, a women's group from Western Canada infuriated Jean Charest by opposing the "distinct society" clause out of fears that it might be used by the Quebec government to force francophone women to have more children. I don't believe all Canadians think that, but still, where on Earth do these ideas come from? And let's not even talk about the relationship of francophone Quebecers with minorities, which other Canadians seem to think must absolutely be supervised. No, I don't understand where the distrust of francophone Quebecers by the rest of Canada comes from, but from my side it does look somewhat racist, as if it were based on an obsolete idea of what "French Canadians" are.
That was going to be my first post in this thread this morning!!!!

I remember that women's group and their comments very clearly. They evoked a scenario out of The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood. Quebec women forced into baby factories to save the nation.

It was all a bit surreal and hysterical.

"2.1(1) The Constitution of Canada shall interpreted in a manner consistent with


(a) the recognition that the existence of French speaking Canadians, centred in Quebec but also present elsewhere in Canada, and English speaking Canadians, concentrated outside Quebec but also present in Quebec, constitutes a fundamental characteristic of Canada; and
  • (b) the recognition that Quebec constitutes within Canada a distinct society.
(2) The role of the Parliament of Canada and the provincial legislatures to preserve the fundamental characteristic of Canada referred to in paragraph (l)(a) is affirmed.
(3) The role of the legislature and Government of Quebec to preserve and promote the distinct identity of Quebec referred to in paragraph (1)(b) is affirmed.

The response of the main feminist group in Quebec, the Fédération des femmes du Québec, was something like: "Uhhh, thanks for your concern but we're perfectly able to take care of ourselves. Now f-- off and die".
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Old 01-23-2015, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna. (birthplace)
12,351 posts, read 7,508,813 times
Reputation: 15950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Well, nothing against them and of course they are entitled to have their say, but they number about 250,000 out of a population of over 8 million. And a chunk of that 250 k are kids adopted in infancy by French Canadian families and therefore indistinguishable culturally, socially and linguistically from the majority francophone population.

So that's why you don't hear their "unique" perspective on this very much.
Then please explain the disparity evidenced by this statistic:

More than one-fifth of Canadians are foreign-born: National Household Survey - The Globe and Mail

The foreign-born chose to settle in Quebec at a faster pace than in any other province during the past five years, according to data from the 2006 Census.

The 2006 Census enumerated a total of 851,600 foreign-born residents in Quebec, an increase of 144,600 individuals, or 20.5%, from 2001.

This was higher than the 13.6% growth rate in the foreign-born population for the entire country during this period.

People born outside Canada accounted for 11.5% of Quebec's total population in 2006, the highest proportion ever in the province's history. In 2001, they represented 9.9% of the population.

In fact, Quebec was the province with the second-highest share, of newcomers who had arrived ]in Canada during the previous five years, the first being Ontario. This was due to increased immigration to the province since 2001. Of the estimated 1,110,000 new immigrants, 17.5% lived in Quebec. In 2001, a smaller proportion of newcomers (13.7%) chose to live in Quebec.

SOURCE: Statistics Canada -- 2006 Census


Out of a population of 35 million, that would mean that about 7 million Canadian residents were born elsewhere.

They are, of course, heavily concentrated in the large cities, and I know from personal experience that very few of them see much opportunity in the rural and francophonic regions of Quebec. And I'm also aware that Mr. Parizeau took little time in attributing his defeat in the last referendum to their solidarity on this issue.

I doubt that recent immigrants of any extraction, or their native-born children, see much benefit in a possible breakup of Canada.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 01-23-2015 at 09:15 AM..
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Old 01-23-2015, 08:07 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,947 posts, read 27,348,673 times
Reputation: 8603
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
Then please explain the disparity evidenced by this statistic:

More than one-fifth of Canadians are foreign-born: National Household Survey - The Globe and Mail

[SIZE=4][SIZE=4]Quebec: Highest proportion of foreign-born population ever[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[/SIZE]


[SIZE=4][SIZE=4][/SIZE][/SIZE][SIZE=2][SIZE=2]The foreign-born chose to settle in Quebec at a faster pace than in any other province during the[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]past five years, according to data from the 2006 Census.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]The 2006 Census enumerated a total of 851,600 foreign-born residents in Quebec, an increase of[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]144,600 individuals, or 20.5%, from 2001. This was higher than the 13.6% growth rate in the[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]foreign-born population for the entire country during this period.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]People born outside Canada accounted for 11.5% of Quebec's total population in 2006, the[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]highest proportion ever in the province's history. In 2001, they represented 9.9% of the[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]population.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]In fact, Quebec was the province with the second-highest share, of newcomers who had arrived[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]in Canada during the previous five years, the first being Ontario. This was due to increased[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]immigration to the province since 2001. Of the estimated 1,110,000 new immigrants, 17.5% lived[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]in Quebec. In 2001, a smaller proportion of newcomers (13.7%) chose to live in Quebec[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[/SIZE]



Out of a population of 35 million, that would mean that about 7 million Canadian residents were born elsewhere.

They are, of course, heavily concentrated in the large cities, and I know from personal experience that very few of them see much opportunity in the rural and francophonic regions of Quebec. And I'm also aware that Mr. Parizeau took little time in attributing his defeat in the last referendum to their solidarity on this issue.

What's your point, though? Not all of those foreign-born people in Quebec are of Asian origin. And some people in Quebec who are of Asian origin are native-born.

Most foreign-born people or ''minority" (for lack of a better term) people in Quebec are not of Asian origin in fact. The largest groups tend to be Black and Arab, and Quebec also has large Latin American and also European-born (French, Italian, Greek, etc.) populations.

You're a bit off-base with this. Greatly.
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Old 01-23-2015, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Canada
325 posts, read 295,188 times
Reputation: 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daywalk View Post
I strongly oppose to the creation of a new country in North America. The only scenario that seems acceptable is if it joins the U.S.
I doubt America wants another Mississippi, but with 10x the demands and political volatility. Quebec is the poorest industrialized region of North America, and doesn't exactly bring much to the table. I think a lot of policies Quebec has are also illegal in the States so this would cause even more problems.
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Old 01-23-2015, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna. (birthplace)
12,351 posts, read 7,508,813 times
Reputation: 15950
I have a question for any of the Canadian participants here:

I have a slightly better knowledge of Canadian history than most Americans; I'm familiar, for example, with Louis Riel and the Metis uprising. via the late Joseph Howard's work, Strange Empire.

But I've heard mention, on a few occasions, of a movement within the prairie provinces to leave Canada and affiliate with the United states; this supposedly peaked sometime around 1915, (possibly due to Canada's being drawn into World War I?)

The people from whom I heard this had their own motives, so I'm wondering if the story might have been "embellished" to some degree. Thanks in advance for any input.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 01-23-2015 at 11:08 AM..
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Old 01-23-2015, 10:54 AM
 
261 posts, read 203,023 times
Reputation: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
That was going to be my first post in this thread this morning!!!!
Maybe I got this information from your posts then. I was a child during Meech so I don't remember this, but I was trying to remember where I'd read this and the best I could do was "maybe from Chantal Hébert?" But from you's just as likely.

Quote:
I remember that women's group and their comments very clearly. They evoked a scenario out of The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood. Quebec women forced into baby factories to save the nation.
I've never read this book, and didn't know what it was about, so I checked the Wikipedia article and it looks rather interesting. I'm not surprised Atwood set it in the United States, but I may look into it despite this.

ETA: Oh, and by the way, Quebec isn't the poorest place in North America. It's not the poorest place in Canada (it's somewhat below the average Canadian level of wealth, but the Atlantic provinces tend to be poorer) and nowhere near Mississippi.
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Old 01-23-2015, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,263,375 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post
ETA: Oh, and by the way, Quebec isn't the poorest place in North America. It's not the poorest place in Canada (it's somewhat below the average Canadian level of wealth, but the Atlantic provinces tend to be poorer) and nowhere near Mississippi.
Actually it's true; Quebec is the poorest industrialized part of Canada or the US. Quebec's GDP per capita is actually about the same as Mississippi, and lower than the other 49 states in the US, and lower than every Canadian province except for the Maritimes.

Here are some facts about Montreal from Michel David's report, Montreal: City-State, Re-Inventing Our Governance:

- The poorest city in North America with population of 2 million or more (22nd out of 22)
- Enjoys almost the least amount of liberty or individual rights,
(59th out of 60 jurisdictions)
- The highest taxes on the continent
- The lowest level of entrepreneurship in Canada (50% of the Canadian average)
- Economic growth has been half of that of Toronto, Calgary, and vancouver
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Old 01-23-2015, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,947 posts, read 27,348,673 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
- Enjoys almost the least amount of liberty or individual rights, (59th out of 60 jurisdictions)
-
I'd be interested in what led to this conclusion.
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