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View Poll Results: Is Canada better without Quebec?
Yes, Canada is better off without Quebec 55 41.67%
No, Canada is better off with Quebec 77 58.33%
Voters: 132. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-28-2015, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,776 posts, read 37,717,092 times
Reputation: 11550

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Quote:
Originally Posted by modernrebel View Post
Quebec the richest? More like the poorest and getting poorer fast. There is no way Quebec is more advanced than Ontario.
I think he meant "not the richest".

In some ways Quebec is more advanced, in others it isn't. General statements like this are difficult to make.
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Old 01-28-2015, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Montreal > Quebec > Canada
565 posts, read 666,745 times
Reputation: 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by modernrebel View Post
Quebec the richest? More like the poorest and getting poorer fast. There is no way Quebec is more advanced than Ontario.

Quebec isn't "getting poorer". The last recession was years ago, not very intense and its duration was short. The growth is average by Canadian standards.
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Old 01-28-2015, 07:16 PM
 
2,887 posts, read 5,111,404 times
Reputation: 3663
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
If you read the links, the OECD compares Quebec as a distinct region of Canada, to Mississippi to an individual state of the US. It is not Canada compared to Mississippi.
No -- I did read the links, the methodology is straightforward. GDP per capita (PPP) = region-level GDP per capita * country-level PPP adjustment. As far as I know, there is no organization that produces official regional PPP figures; the OECD, Eurostat and the World Bank numbers use the same methodology. This means you can compare GDP (PPP) numbers across countries but not across regions within a country or across countries. The regional rankings are only ever useful if you are ready to assume all regions within the same country have the same price levels (or that wealth created in a given region will be used by economic actors to purchase goods at that country's average cost), generally a ridiculous proposition. Otherwise, GDP (PPP) will overstate the wealth created in high-cost regions, and understate the wealth created in low-cost regions.
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Old 01-28-2015, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Canada
428 posts, read 447,121 times
Reputation: 661
Quote:
Originally Posted by begratto View Post
Quebec isn't "getting poorer". The last recession was years ago, not very intense and its duration was short. The growth is average by Canadian standards.
This is entirely false.

Why Quebec is closed for business

"At the same time, business investment—you know, by actual companies—has stagnated at seven per cent. That’s put Quebec near the bottom of the pack, alongside Ontario, and a notch above New Brunswick and Nova Scotia."

"On that front, too, Quebec came dead last, with an entrepreneurship rate of 9.6 per cent, compared to 11.9 per cent in Ontario and close to 19 per cent in Alberta."

"It doesn’t take an advanced degree in rocketry to know why all this is the case. For decades Quebec businesses have been plagued with repeated bouts of separation anxiety and the constant irritant of the province’s language police. The province punishes businesses with some of the highest taxes in North America, yet it has rung up a $2.4-billion deficit and a debt load equal to half its GDP, the highest in the country. When not arbitrarily overriding the rights of shareholders to protect underperforming Quebec companies, the government has flip-flopped on its attitude toward resource development. In short, it’s an economic environment layered with uncertainty, instability and state interference."



Researchers say Quebec's standard of living is dropping, public spending is in crisis | CTV Montreal News

"The study's authors say that the standard of living in Quebec has been steadily declining since 1981, in part because of a constant increase in public spending and diminishing returns from that spending."

"Since 1981, if we had the same growth as New Brunswick, over that 30-year period our average" income would be $10,000 more per year per person, added Gagné."

"He says Quebec is very close to becoming the poorest province in the country, ahead of only the Maritime provinces."

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02...rest-province/

"Quebecers will displace their fellow countrymen as the poorest Canadians if current income and purchasing power trends continue, according to a new study released Tuesday by Montreal’s HEC business school."

"Mr. Coiteux said. The income gap is widening between Quebec and Canada’s richest provinces while it is shrinking with the poorest. Over a 31-year period from 1978 to 2009, every region of Canada gained on income against Quebec, according to the study. Buoyed by revenues from offshore oil, Newfoundland has bridged the income gap with Quebec to within $3,127 per adult as of 2009. Ontario’s income was $9,853 higher per adult that year while Alberta’s was $17,947 higher."

"While it remains cheaper to buy consumer goods like food, gasoline and haircuts in Quebec than most other provinces (9% cheaper in Quebec than Alberta in 2009 for Statistics Canada’s standard Consumer Price Index basket of goods, for example), the difference is narrowing.

And that makes the purchase power equation even worse for the French-speaking province."

"The relative poverty of Quebec means that its residents pay less in federal income tax and receive more transfers than those living in richer provinces, which reduces the income gap with Ontario, Alberta and B.C. But that situation also represents “a form of dependency,” Mr. Coiteux noted."

Montreal

Montreal is about to celebrate its 375th anniversary, but Quebec’s economic engine is not aging gracefully. So alarming is its decline that a group of business leaders is pleading for urgent action.

Montreal had the slowest GDP growth, at 37 per cent versus 59 per cent, on average, for those five Canadian cities. It had the highest unemployment rate, at 8.5 per cent, on average, compared to 6.3 per cent in those cities. And its demographic growth rate was half that of those Canadian cities.

“Montreal has been slowly decelerating for 15 years, and now it shows. Another 10 years of this and we will be in clear and present danger,” said Jacques Ménard, chairman of BMO Nesbitt Burns and president of the Bank of Montreal in Quebec.

Quote:
Originally Posted by begratto View Post
Quebec isn't "getting poorer". The last recession was years ago, not very intense and its duration was short. The growth is average by Canadian standards.
Do you have any evidence to prove all of these economists that Quebec "isn't getting poorer" or that the last recession was "years ago and it's duration was short"?

The facts that so many Quebecois do not want to face are that Quebec is living off of what the once dominant anglophone population built. Ever since separatism became the main force of Quebec politics, our economy has been in an almost constant decline, or at best seen terrible growth compared to every other province.
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Old 01-28-2015, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,523 posts, read 2,850,486 times
Reputation: 2220
Quote:
Originally Posted by barneyg View Post
No -- I did read the links, the methodology is straightforward. GDP per capita (PPP) = region-level GDP per capita * country-level PPP adjustment. As far as I know, there is no organization that produces official regional PPP figures; the OECD, Eurostat and the World Bank numbers use the same methodology. This means you can compare GDP (PPP) numbers across countries but not across regions within a country or across countries. The regional rankings are only ever useful if you are ready to assume all regions within the same country have the same price levels (or that wealth created in a given region will be used by economic actors to purchase goods at that country's average cost), generally a ridiculous proposition. Otherwise, GDP (PPP) will overstate the wealth created in high-cost regions, and understate the wealth created in low-cost regions.
Alright - according to this logic, the wealth in Mississippi will be much understated compared to Quebec. Quebec is expensive by American standards, while Mississippi is easily among the very cheapest places on the continent, and certainly much cheaper than anything available in Canada. Quebec's wealth would be understated to some degree, and Mississippi's wealth would be much more understated than even that of Quebec.
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Old 01-28-2015, 07:33 PM
 
2,887 posts, read 5,111,404 times
Reputation: 3663
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Alright - according to this logic, the wealth in Mississippi will be much understated compared to Quebec. Quebec is expensive by American standards, while Mississippi is easily among the very cheapest places on the continent, and certainly much cheaper than anything available in Canada. Quebec's wealth would be understated to some degree, and Mississippi's wealth would be much more understated than even that of Quebec.
Sigh.
The Canada vs. US adjustment is already taken into account.
Quebec is inexpensive by Canadian standards. Therefore its 'true' GDP (PPP) should be higher. By how much, we don't know.
Mississippi is inexpensive by American standards. Therefore its 'true' GDP (PPP) should be higher. By how much, we don't know.
Cost of living in Mississippi is likely lower than in Quebec, but that's irrelevant. The question is how different is MS's cost of living from the US average, and how different QC's cost of living is from the Canada average. To know the proper adjustment you'd need to carry out the full PPP calculations for each province/state.

But hey, if this discussion goes
Quantitative table -> proven wrong -> qualitative argument about MS vs. QC,
..then knock yourself out, I'm no longer playing. I try not to argue on C-D about things I don't know about, and I sure wouldn't argue with you on history-related topics
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Old 01-28-2015, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,523 posts, read 2,850,486 times
Reputation: 2220
Quote:
Originally Posted by barneyg View Post
Sigh.
The Canada vs. US adjustment is already taken into account.
Quebec is inexpensive by Canadian standards. Therefore its 'true' GDP (PPP) should be higher. By how much, we don't know.
Mississippi is inexpensive by American standards. Therefore its 'true' GDP (PPP) should be higher. By how much, we don't know.
Cost of living in Mississippi is likely lower than in Quebec, but that's irrelevant. The question is how different is MS's cost of living from the US average, and how different QC's cost of living is from the Canada average. To know the proper adjustment you'd need to carry out the full PPP calculations for each province/state.

But hey, if this discussion goes
Quantitative table -> proven wrong -> qualitative argument about MS vs. QC,
..then knock yourself out, I'm no longer playing. I try not to argue on C-D about things I don't know about, and I sure wouldn't argue with you on history-related topics
Okay I see what you mean. I'm glad you shared, either way I am learning something. It's true I didn't take all of this into account when posting those stats about Quebec's economy.
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Old 01-30-2015, 06:11 PM
 
Location: Canada
428 posts, read 447,121 times
Reputation: 661
Quote:
Originally Posted by barneyg View Post
Sigh.
The Canada vs. US adjustment is already taken into account.
Quebec is inexpensive by Canadian standards. Therefore its 'true' GDP (PPP) should be higher. By how much, we don't know.
Mississippi is inexpensive by American standards. Therefore its 'true' GDP (PPP) should be higher. By how much, we don't know.
Cost of living in Mississippi is likely lower than in Quebec, but that's irrelevant. The question is how different is MS's cost of living from the US average, and how different QC's cost of living is from the Canada average. To know the proper adjustment you'd need to carry out the full PPP calculations for each province/state.

But hey, if this discussion goes
Quantitative table -"proven wrong" qualitative argument about MS vs. QC,
..then knock yourself out, I'm no longer playing. I try not to argue on C-D about things I don't know about, and I sure wouldn't argue with you on history-related topics
Quebec is poor no matter how we slice the cake. People forget that West Island Montreal isn't all of Quebec. Places like Sept Iles, Gaspe and the Lac Saint Jean region are absolutely poorer than most of Mississippi.

I think some of you find it so hard to believe Quebec is as rich as Mississippi because you have a stereotypical image of Mississippi. In movies Mississippi gets the worst rap. But those are movies and the media, not necissarly reality. I have been to Mississippi and Louisiana and the standard of living was no different than Quebec (or Canada). There is nothing to be so offended about, or to act so dramatic about.

Average Mississippi locale: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ja...13cde441f038a0

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.2074...ZfPinySk2A!2e0

Last edited by modernrebel; 01-30-2015 at 06:24 PM..
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Old 02-01-2015, 05:49 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,776 posts, read 37,717,092 times
Reputation: 11550
Quote:
Originally Posted by modernrebel View Post
Quebec is poor no matter how we slice the cake. People forget that West Island Montreal isn't all of Quebec. Places like Sept Iles, Gaspe and the Lac Saint Jean region are absolutely poorer than most of Mississippi.

I think some of you find it so hard to believe Quebec is as rich as Mississippi because you have a stereotypical image of Mississippi. In movies Mississippi gets the worst rap. But those are movies and the media, not necissarly reality. I have been to Mississippi and Louisiana and the standard of living was no different than Quebec (or Canada). There is nothing to be so offended about, or to act so dramatic about.

Average Mississippi locale: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ja...13cde441f038a0

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.2074...ZfPinySk2A!2e0
Those don't look markedly different from the average place in Quebec.
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Old 02-01-2015, 05:52 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,776 posts, read 37,717,092 times
Reputation: 11550
Plus Quebec doesn't really have anything even close to this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-pkSu9ORo0

See... I can use drama to prove my point too.
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