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Old 03-04-2015, 09:19 PM
 
2,559 posts, read 2,177,631 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
You are reading too much into the word "Christian". Germany is a culturally Christian society. Without Christianity, German society would still see making human sacrifices to Wotan as an acceptable custom. Or perhaps Sunday would still be just another work day. Maybe Germans would still engage in the practices of ritualistic divination and augury before the feet of trees. Without centuries of influence from Christianity, German culture wouldn't even be recognizable as German. That is the great irony of the current atheist and agnostic movements. Whether someone attends church regularly or whether they claim to be atheist is really quite trivial. Culturally the average German atheist adheres to an inherently Christian set of values simply because they are culturally German.
Thanks for informing me on how we live in our German fatherland.
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Old 03-04-2015, 09:56 PM
 
2,559 posts, read 2,177,631 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
You are reading too much into the word "Christian". Germany is a culturally Christian society. Without Christianity, German society would still see making human sacrifices to Wotan as an acceptable custom. Or perhaps Sunday would still be just another work day. Maybe Germans would still engage in the practices of ritualistic divination and augury before the feet of trees. Without centuries of influence from Christianity, German culture wouldn't even be recognizable as German. That is the great irony of the current atheist and agnostic movements. Whether someone attends church regularly or whether they claim to be atheist is really quite trivial. Culturally the average German atheist adheres to an inherently Christian set of values simply because they are culturally German.
Keep in mind that most Germans from the east have little to no religious affiliation whatsoever due to 40 years of socialism and atheist education that pretty much erased former religious institutions with state and party organs (almost religious in their own right, but most definitely not Christian) - to the point where the east German government actively promoted Freikörperkultur (FKK) - Free Body Culture - a naturist nude culture without attachment to traditional sense of sexuality or marriage. You may think this is some fringe tree hugger movement like those in the U.S., but it gained widespread acceptance in the former east Germany and parts of the Bundesrepublik. And yes, in that respect you are right - Germans do take their Sundays off - and you'll find a good many of us spending a sunny Sunday afternoon frolicking on the nude beaches of Berlin Wannsee, with all due respect to our "culturally Christian" society whatever that entails in this day and age.

You can only say that certain institutions in mainstream German culture are built upon Christian cultural foundations. Even those that proclaim to have Christian influence, like Angela Merke's Christlich Demokratische Union, are very rarely influenced by Christian cultural values any longer with a majority of its supporters being ardently atheist or agnostic at best.

To say that modern German society is still culturally Christian also ignores many historical turning points in post-war German history, such as the university student movements of the 1960s and 70s that swept across the Bundesrepublik and literally shook up traditional cultural and political institutions inside out. A main point of the movement that resonated with millions in the Bundesrepublik was the conservative establishment's inaction on inequality and ambivalence towards former Nazi war criminals turned civil servants, many of whom were pardoned/accepted by the Christian Democratic Union. If you ask an ordinary German today born in the in the post-war era or millenials about whether "Deutschland ist kulturell Christlich..." most would find that question absurd and distasteful to begin with, as if you are completely ignoring all the major cultural and political transformations of Germany society in the past 70 years.

Last edited by bostonkid123; 03-04-2015 at 10:24 PM..
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Old 03-05-2015, 04:36 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
Reputation: 8602
Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
Thanks for informing me on how we live in our German fatherland.
I know you might be joking but by referring to ''our German fatherland'' you are kind of proving his point.


What he is saying is also true of all western countries to some degree, not just Germany.
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Old 03-05-2015, 06:52 AM
 
1,218 posts, read 2,114,619 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I know you might be joking but by referring to ''our German fatherland'' you are kind of proving his point.


What he is saying is also true of all western countries to some degree, not just Germany.
I tend to agree. As a first generation Canadian, I have little "real" connection to my parent's homelands. I like some of the foods, know some words, and have exposure to different ways of thought, but I probably couldn't survive living there for an extended period of time. I feel more well rounded in some ways having exposure to other cultures growing up but at this point, I'm too busy making the mortgage payments and building my life in the society where I live. I don't consider myself 100% assimilated into Canadian society either: I don't own a cottage, don't play hockey and don't like Tim Hortons. I can see my future kids being even more Anglo-Canadianized than me in terms of lifestyle and mindset. I'm totally fine with my kids wanting to play hockey but it was never an option for me growing up.

Another conundrum is that unless you assimilate to some degree, you will not get ahead in Canadian or American or Quebec society. The difference with Quebec seems to be that their pressures to assimilate is competing with pressures form Anglo societies, which could win out over time unless drastic measures are taken. Quebec has be more self-contained to survive culturally in its current form. It is not the same as Anglo Canadian/American society in this regard and their promotion of multiculturalism, a concept that I still think is odd to formally promote.
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Old 03-05-2015, 07:25 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
Alright, I'll give you this one. But don't expect me to ease up on my unrelenting assault
No worries! I can take it!
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Old 03-05-2015, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Canada
170 posts, read 137,160 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
Keep in mind that most Germans from the east have little to no religious affiliation whatsoever due to 40 years of socialism and atheist education that pretty much erased former religious institutions with state and party organs (almost religious in their own right, but most definitely not Christian) - to the point where the east German government actively promoted Freikörperkultur (FKK) - Free Body Culture - a naturist nude culture without attachment to traditional sense of sexuality or marriage. You may think this is some fringe tree hugger movement like those in the U.S., but it gained widespread acceptance in the former east Germany and parts of the Bundesrepublik. And yes, in that respect you are right - Germans do take their Sundays off - and you'll find a good many of us spending a sunny Sunday afternoon frolicking on the nude beaches of Berlin Wannsee, with all due respect to our "culturally Christian" society whatever that entails in this day and age.

You can only say that certain institutions in mainstream German culture are built upon Christian cultural foundations. Even those that proclaim to have Christian influence, like Angela Merke's Christlich Demokratische Union, are very rarely influenced by Christian cultural values any longer with a majority of its supporters being ardently atheist or agnostic at best.

To say that modern German society is still culturally Christian also ignores many historical turning points in post-war German history, such as the university student movements of the 1960s and 70s that swept across the Bundesrepublik and literally shook up traditional cultural and political institutions inside out. A main point of the movement that resonated with millions in the Bundesrepublik was the conservative establishment's inaction on inequality and ambivalence towards former Nazi war criminals turned civil servants, many of whom were pardoned/accepted by the Christian Democratic Union. If you ask an ordinary German today born in the in the post-war era or millenials about whether "Deutschland ist kulturell Christlich..." most would find that question absurd and distasteful to begin with, as if you are completely ignoring all the major cultural and political transformations of Germany society in the past 70 years.
Merkel urges Germans: stand up for Christian values | Reuters

"Germany needs more public discussion 'about the values that guide us (and) about our Judeo-Christian tradition,' she said. 'We have to stress this again with confidence, then we will also be able to bring about cohesion in our society'."

"But her party looks set to pass a resolution Tuesday stressing that German culture has Judeo-Christian roots, an idea that critics say aims to marginalize Islam."

"The resolution says Germany's cultural identity is based on the "Christian-Jewish tradition," ancient and Enlightenment philosophy and the nation's historical experience"

What, is German culture based on Muslim values? Buddhist values? You are kidding yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
Thanks for informing me on how we live in our German fatherland.
You aren't German. If you think you are, you are seriously confused. Some of us are actually familiar with Germany so stop trying so hard to twist it.
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Old 03-05-2015, 08:47 AM
 
Location: Derby, Western Australia
3,091 posts, read 3,536,592 times
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I can see the reasoning of French speakers as English is so widespread and is a threat to their linguistic heritage without a fully fledged countenance movement as it stands. We don't need to look it this through the prism of a war though, people can speak both languages fluently and be Québécois.
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Old 03-05-2015, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
Reputation: 8602
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattCassidy View Post
Merkel urges Germans: stand up for Christian values | Reuters

"Germany needs more public discussion 'about the values that guide us (and) about our Judeo-Christian tradition,' she said. 'We have to stress this again with confidence, then we will also be able to bring about cohesion in our society'."

"But her party looks set to pass a resolution Tuesday stressing that German culture has Judeo-Christian roots, an idea that critics say aims to marginalize Islam."

"The resolution says Germany's cultural identity is based on the "Christian-Jewish tradition," ancient and Enlightenment philosophy and the nation's historical experience"

What, is German culture based on Muslim values? Buddhist values? You are kidding yourself.

.
Germany is one of a number of European countries that is having second thoughts about multiculturalism. Or at least about how multiculturalism has been practised there thus far.

Angela Merkel has also said in the past that multiculturalism is a "failure".
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Old 03-05-2015, 10:13 AM
 
2,559 posts, read 2,177,631 times
Reputation: 1810
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattCassidy View Post
Merkel urges Germans: stand up for Christian values | Reuters

"Germany needs more public discussion 'about the values that guide us (and) about our Judeo-Christian tradition,' she said. 'We have to stress this again with confidence, then we will also be able to bring about cohesion in our society'."

"But her party looks set to pass a resolution Tuesday stressing that German culture has Judeo-Christian roots, an idea that critics say aims to marginalize Islam."

"The resolution says Germany's cultural identity is based on the "Christian-Jewish tradition," ancient and Enlightenment philosophy and the nation's historical experience"

What, is German culture based on Muslim values? Buddhist values? You are kidding yourself.



You aren't German. If you think you are, you are seriously confused. Some of us are actually familiar with Germany so stop trying so hard to twist it.
Lol. You pull up an old outdated news piece from 5 years ago? Just because Angela Merkel said so means Germany is somehow a Christian-cultured society? Give me a break. Neither Merkel nor the CDU speaks for Germany.

And for the record, I grew up in Berlin Schöneberg since I was 4 years old, lived the entire post-reunification experience, hold full Bundesrepublik citizenship. Are you saying I'm not German because I'm not your white blond blue-eyed hollywood German? I can't believe you are actually using some random outdated quote from Merkel to put an all-encompassing generalization Germany's "culture". The "Christian-Jewish tradition" was only put in CDU statements to appease their senior 60+ year old voters, who are pretty much the only ones in Germany today who openly identify as Christian. And I love the fact that she has to add "Jewish" as well - typical CDU political correctness just fool the masses and the EU. Sad, but not surprising given the load of political correctness that's being shoved down our throats by the Lügenpresse. Ask any youth in Freie or Humboldt or even LMU in Bayern today if they actually believe a word of that all-too-politically correct statement.

Did I say that Germany's culture is based on Islam or Buddhist values? Germany's culture, like any other nation's, is based on our collective historical experiences, which encompasses Christianity, NSDAP fascism, imperialism, socialism in the DDR, and recent influx of immigration. How much weight do Christian values carry when the nation's gone through so much traumatic and transformational experiences?

And a final correction, you only know YOUR version of Germany.
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Old 03-05-2015, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Canada
170 posts, read 137,160 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
Lol. You pull up an old outdated news piece from 5 years ago? Just because Angela Merkel said so means Germany is somehow a Christian-cultured society? Give me a break. Neither Merkel nor the CDU speaks for Germany.

And for the record, I grew up in Berlin since I was 4 years old and hold full Bundesrepublik citizenship. I can't believe you are actually using some random outdated quote from Merkel to put an all-encompassing generalization Germany's "culture". The "Christian-Jewish tradition" was only put in their to appease her senior 60+ voters, who are pretty much the only ones in Germany today who openly identify as Christian. And I love the fact that she has to add "Jewish" as well - typical CDU political correctness just fool the masses and the EU. Ask any youth in Freie or Humboldt today if they actually believe a word of that statement.

Did I say that Germany's culture is based on Islam or Buddhist values? Germany's culture, like any other nation's, is based on our collective historical experiences, which encompasses Christianity, NSDAP fascism, imperialism, socialism in the DDR, and recent influx of immigration. How much weight do Christian values carry when the nation's gone through so much traumatic and transformational experiences?

And a final correction, you only know YOUR version of Germany.
You aren't German.
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