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Old 02-15-2015, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,168,036 times
Reputation: 3738

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post
Dear Lord, man. Nobody ever said that teaching French in Canadian high schools is absurd. It's actually a great idea. But requiring high fluency in French as a necessary condition for every Canadian high school student to graduate is absurd. "Cross-cultural exchanges", whatever that means, are also probably a great idea. But it's also not something you can mandate.

Also, English Canadians speaking French is not at all insulting, it's great. And if an anglophone wants to speak French with me, it'll be a pleasure for me to do it. Service people in English Canada saying "Hello! Bonjour!" despite not being able to actually offer meaningful service in French? That's annoying, but I guess I can live with it; I'm not expecting service in French from them anyway. Their greeting me with "Hello! Bonjour!" being offered as an example of how open to French English Canada is, or else of how Canada is bending over backwards to accommodate Quebec's petty demands? Now that's offensive.

Seriously man, is it so hard to read and understand posts on this forum? How much do we need to spell it for you?
In red - ummm Understand which posts on this forum and from who exactly lol...Read through all these posts in the Canada forum and explain to me how I'm supposed to make sense of all these contradictory and nonsensical posts that have parallels to string theory. I almost find it amusing you would have such an expectation.. Who are the we MC? Where are the voices of unison and reason in these forums on core matters of importance... I don't see many, though I suspect many are around and are silent and I can see why, they almost have to deal with a thug like mentality... You have a greater voice of reason than some.. I will admit to that.. We don't always see eye to eye but a greater voice of reason than others-yes.

If you don't make something mandatory it won't necessarily happen - though i kind of lean more to centralization than decentralization.. Its not a popular concept in here among some but in many ways, it actually helps to standardize and solve many problems of fragmentation.. Certain things benefit from having a strong core - mandating language training in a bilingual nation isn't a bad idea - but if it is something that is met with widespread anger than I digress - I really don't understand why though.. There are so many things in school learned that were far less practically important than learning both official languages of the nation... Absurd idea.. i'm not so certain of that.... Absurd in practice - perhaps.. It certainly would go a looong way to addressing those poor Hello Bonjour people... they'd actually be able to converse in both official languages from sea to sea. If the argument is, well people should simply learn something because they want to - well I can buy that but but how many Francophones learn English because the intent is to bridge cultural/linguistic differences - or are there more practical reasons for the more widespread knowledge of English in Quebec vs French in the R.O.C..?

Cross cultural exchanges would be akin to what happened to me in High School where we travelled across country to the interior of B.C to see how those in rural B.C lived.. It as these urban Torontonian kids from a multicultural school who simply spent time with host families and got to know them and their way of life.. On the flip, those kids came to Toronto to do the same.. I wouldn't make his 'madatory' per se, but I do think we should make a far greater effort in these things as a nation.. We seem to get our backs up very quickly though....

I also wish some looked at the more human element of things... but that is another story..

Last edited by fusion2; 02-15-2015 at 05:42 PM..
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Old 02-16-2015, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,962 posts, read 27,416,532 times
Reputation: 8626
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Yeah I don't really care either - i've given up on the everyone in Canada becoming bilingual and the cultural connections as well.. I'm not going to go into someone's house that i'm not welcome in! Well, this is my position in C/D because practicably everyone of French Canadian persuasion in here is putting up the big STAY OUT sign - we don't want any cultural connectivity or integration..

That's fine with me Acajack!
How can you turn so harsh and bitter so quickly? I think you might take this stuff too personally. Just like when Netwit talked about not wanting to be in the same country as Ontario if Quebec separated. You've brought it up so many times on here as if it was personally hurtful, and also the official position of Western Canadians on the issue.

I like you fusion - but geez, don't take everything so personally.

Especially not when we voice our reasons as to why we think certain ideas won't help things.

Case in point: French at airports across Canada.

I said it didn't matter to me that I have to speak English to navigate YYZ. It doesn't shake my faith in a united Canada and I am sure that it doesn't shake the faith of most people in Quebec either.

Consider this: Switzerland does not have active viable separatist movements in its French and Italian speaking regions, and yet there sure as hell isn't a commitment or expectation about French or Italian service at Zurich airport.

No, the reason people in Geneva or Lugano feel comfortable being Swiss is because practically no one visits or moves there and says "WTF's up with this French/Italian crap? German's the majority language in Switzerland, and has way more speakers in Europe with Germany and Austria right next door. Plus, Mercedes is better than Renault or Fiat, Beethoven and Mozart are more famous than Vivaldi and Ravel, and the Mannschaft have won more World Cups, gnagnagnagna..."

People care about being respected in their home a lot more than they care about some form of tacit recognition far away from it. It's the first level of concern.

It's just one example but telling Quebec francophones that they can (or maybe *might* be able to) get French service at YYZ or even YVR is like giving someone a pair of ice skates when they've expressed their wish to start biking to school every day. Then you wonder why their reaction is "Gee... hmm... thanks"... and to keep asking for a bike.
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Old 02-16-2015, 12:03 PM
 
695 posts, read 738,594 times
Reputation: 922
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
How can you turn so harsh and bitter so quickly? I think you might take this stuff too personally. Just like when Netwit talked about not wanting to be in the same country as Ontario if Quebec separated. You've brought it up so many times on here as if it was personally hurtful, and also the official position of Western Canadians on the issue.

I like you fusion - but geez, don't take everything so personally.

Especially not when we voice our reasons as to why we think certain ideas won't help things.

Case in point: French at airports across Canada.

I said it didn't matter to me that I have to speak English to navigate YYZ. It doesn't shake my faith in a united Canada and I am sure that it doesn't shake the faith of most people in Quebec either.

Consider this: Switzerland does not have active viable separatist movements in its French and Italian speaking regions, and yet there sure as hell isn't a commitment or expectation about French or Italian service at Zurich airport.

No, the reason people in Geneva or Lugano feel comfortable being Swiss is because practically no one visits or moves there and says "WTF's up with this French/Italian crap? German's the majority language in Switzerland, and has way more speakers in Europe with Germany and Austria right next door. Plus, Mercedes is better than Renault or Fiat, Beethoven and Mozart are more famous than Vivaldi and Ravel, and the Mannschaft have won more World Cups, gnagnagnagna..."

People care about being respected in their home a lot more than they care about some form of tacit recognition far away from it. It's the first level of concern.


It's just one example but telling Quebec francophones that they can (or maybe *might* be able to) get French service at YYZ or even YVR is like giving someone a pair of ice skates when they've expressed their wish to start biking to school every day. Then you wonder why their reaction is "Gee... hmm... thanks"... and to keep asking for a bike.
I wish I could rate this 1000 times. I couldn't have said it better myself.
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Old 02-16-2015, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,695 posts, read 6,551,110 times
Reputation: 8198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
How can you turn so harsh and bitter so quickly? I think you might take this stuff too personally. Just like when Netwit talked about not wanting to be in the same country as Ontario if Quebec separated. You've brought it up so many times on here as if it was personally hurtful, and also the official position of Western Canadians on the issue.

I like you fusion - but geez, don't take everything so personally.

Especially not when we voice our reasons as to why we think certain ideas won't help things.

Case in point: French at airports across Canada.

I said it didn't matter to me that I have to speak English to navigate YYZ. It doesn't shake my faith in a united Canada and I am sure that it doesn't shake the faith of most people in Quebec either.

Consider this: Switzerland does not have active viable separatist movements in its French and Italian speaking regions, and yet there sure as hell isn't a commitment or expectation about French or Italian service at Zurich airport.

No, the reason people in Geneva or Lugano feel comfortable being Swiss is because practically no one visits or moves there and says "WTF's up with this French/Italian crap? German's the majority language in Switzerland, and has way more speakers in Europe with Germany and Austria right next door. Plus, Mercedes is better than Renault or Fiat, Beethoven and Mozart are more famous than Vivaldi and Ravel, and the Mannschaft have won more World Cups, gnagnagnagna..."

People care about being respected in their home a lot more than they care about some form of tacit recognition far away from it. It's the first level of concern.

It's just one example but telling Quebec francophones that they can (or maybe *might* be able to) get French service at YYZ or even YVR is like giving someone a pair of ice skates when they've expressed their wish to start biking to school every day. Then you wonder why their reaction is "Gee... hmm... thanks"... and to keep asking for a bike.
Thank you. Now this is worth responding to. It was a joke about Ontario. It was a joke with a grain of truth in it, just as Mikeyyc's joke in the same thread about Manitoba being the DMZ zone between the east and the west was a joke with a grain of truth in it.

Because western Canadian separatism is based almost exclusively on Quebec separatism, which isn't to say that some western complaints aren't valid, just that without Quebec separatism they would not ever rise above complaints, imo. And pointing out that little fact is not the same as me being a separatist of either the eastern or the western persuasian. Not that I expect this to clarify anything for fusion, but just as a matter of record in case that is not clear to anyone else.

Last edited by netwit; 02-16-2015 at 02:07 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 02-16-2015, 06:08 PM
 
2,291 posts, read 3,941,799 times
Reputation: 2062
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Yeah I don't really care either - i've given up on the everyone in Canada becoming bilingual and the cultural connections as well.. I'm not going to go into someone's house that i'm not welcome in! Well, this is my position in C/D because practicably everyone of French Canadian persuasion in here is putting up the big STAY OUT sign - we don't want any cultural connectivity or integration..

That's fine with me Acajack!
who the heck are you talking about??
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Old 02-17-2015, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Saint-Aimé-des-Lacs, Québec
163 posts, read 154,703 times
Reputation: 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Consider this: Switzerland does not have active viable separatist movements in its French and Italian speaking regions, and yet there sure as hell isn't a commitment or expectation about French or Italian service at Zurich airport.

No, the reason people in Geneva or Lugano feel comfortable being Swiss is because practically no one visits or moves there and says "WTF's up with this French/Italian crap? German's the majority language in Switzerland, and has way more speakers in Europe with Germany and Austria right next door. Plus, Mercedes is better than Renault or Fiat, Beethoven and Mozart are more famous than Vivaldi and Ravel, and the Mannschaft have won more World Cups, gnagnagnagna..."

People care about being respected in their home a lot more than they care about some form of tacit recognition far away from it. It's the first level of concern.
I like this alot. But can we be realistic? It doesn't matter what we do or what we say, we are never "heard" by the ROC. I have tried this method for 30 years. I gave up a few years ago. Look at a guy like fusion2. He looks like a nice guy with good interests in his heart, but he doesn't understand no matter what we say. It is pointless at this place in time. It has been shown that it doesn't work.

THere are also differences with Switzerland. The German part didn't do a conquest and make the French subservient for centuries. The Switzerland is formed on mutual agreement, the whole opposite of Canada. I think your analogy works though because it points to the basic parts where our relationship isn't working.
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Old 02-20-2015, 09:48 AM
 
34,461 posts, read 41,580,248 times
Reputation: 29930
Quote:
Originally Posted by ViveLeQuebecLibre View Post
I like this alot. But can we be realistic? It doesn't matter what we do or what we say, we are never "heard" by the ROC. I have tried this method for 30 years. I gave up a few years ago. Look at a guy like fusion2. He looks like a nice guy with good interests in his heart, but he doesn't understand no matter what we say. It is pointless at this place in time. It has been shown that it doesn't work.

THere are also differences with Switzerland. The German part didn't do a conquest and make the French subservient for centuries. The Switzerland is formed on mutual agreement, the whole opposite of Canada. I think your analogy works though because it points to the basic parts where our relationship isn't working.
The solution to this never ending friction between Quebec and the ROC seems obvious to me,Quebec needs to become master of its own destiny and the best way i see that happening is not enacting more linguistic rules and regulations but by Quebec becoming its own country ,a course of action that is very achievable, vote for the PQ then vote yes on the ensuing referendum,bingo the country of Quebec..
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Old 02-20-2015, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,962 posts, read 27,416,532 times
Reputation: 8626
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
The solution to this never ending friction between Quebec and the ROC seems obvious to me,Quebec needs to become master of its own destiny and the best way i see that happening is not enacting more linguistic rules and regulations but by Quebec becoming its own country ,a course of action that is very achievable, vote for the PQ then vote yes on the ensuing referendum,bingo the country of Quebec..
We hear this from you and other frustrated Quebec anglos all the time and it always makes for a great show!

But in reality, everyone knows that people like you would never vote for the PQ (and much less Oui in a referendum) in a million years.

So it's all just bluster.
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Old 02-20-2015, 10:26 AM
 
34,461 posts, read 41,580,248 times
Reputation: 29930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
We hear this from you and other frustrated Quebec anglos all the time and it always makes for a great show!

But in reality, everyone knows that people like you would never vote for the PQ (and much less Oui in a referendum) in a million years.

So it's all just bluster.
Actually i have been voting PQ in the last 2 elections,
Frustrated? i dont think so as i'm surrounded by the best part of 300 million Anglos i just happen to live in an area with a large number of francophone Canadians.
Bluster? that seems to be the forte of people who begrudging live in a country they dont particularly feel a part of with a majority Anglo demographic they complain about all the time and they accept status quo rather than doing anything about it.
AJ do you think the Anglo/Francohone relations are going to improve in coming generations?
I got a feeling youd feel prouder as a Francophone from the sovereign nation of Quebec a culture in charge of its own destiny rather than merely a minority demographic from Canada.
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Old 02-20-2015, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,962 posts, read 27,416,532 times
Reputation: 8626
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
Actually i have been voting PQ in the last 2 elections,
.
We have no way of knowing for sure for you, but certainly there is zero electoral evidence that any decent number of anglos in Quebec are voting PQ because they are fed up with the whole thing and want it over and done with.
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