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Old 02-09-2015, 05:21 AM
 
3,275 posts, read 3,701,115 times
Reputation: 5438

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Typical arguments against abortion:

1. It's living.
Refutation: So is a turnip.

2. It's sentient
Refutation: Late-term abortions done just for the heck of it are extremely rare, and most doctors would refuse to do it. Early-term fetuses are no more sentient than a fish and much less so than a pig or a cow. Are you vegetarian?

3. It could become a doctor/engineer/astronaut/
Refutation: It could also become a druggie deadbeat or a psychopath.

4. It has potential to be a human.
Refutation: So does every sperm cell and egg cell. Should masturbation be illegal? How about menstruation?

5. How would you feel if your parents had aborted you?
Refutation: I wouldn't exist, therefore I wouldn't be around to feel anything. This question is absolutely nonsensical.

Now go away.
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Old 02-09-2015, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Vernon, British Columbia
3,020 posts, read 2,700,040 times
Reputation: 2137
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_gardener View Post
Typical arguments against abortion:

1. It's living.
Refutation: So is a turnip.

2. It's sentient
Refutation: Late-term abortions done just for the heck of it are extremely rare, and most doctors would refuse to do it. Early-term fetuses are no more sentient than a fish and much less so than a pig or a cow. Are you vegetarian?

3. It could become a doctor/engineer/astronaut/
Refutation: It could also become a druggie deadbeat or a psychopath.

4. It has potential to be a human.
Refutation: So does every sperm cell and egg cell. Should masturbation be illegal? How about menstruation?

5. How would you feel if your parents had aborted you?
Refutation: I wouldn't exist, therefore I wouldn't be around to feel anything. This question is absolutely nonsensical.

Now go away.
The arguments for and against abortion are a lot more nuanced than that. There is no refutation because the arguments are based upon opinions and value judgements, and not science and absolutes. The question is when should a living human being be considered a person. The law states that this happens at birth, but there are very good arguments for and against this position.
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Old 02-09-2015, 11:37 AM
 
3,275 posts, read 3,701,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glacierx View Post
The law states that this happens at birth, but there are very good arguments for and against this position.
...most of which are based on opinions and value judgments. The existing 20-22 week cutoff is not some random arbitrary number; it was a consensus arrived at by physicians.
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Old 02-09-2015, 12:36 PM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,997,011 times
Reputation: 1027
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_gardener View Post
...most of which are based on opinions and value judgments. The existing 20-22 week cutoff is not some random arbitrary number; it was a consensus arrived at by physicians.
... and your refutations were based on what?

You are clearly trying to trivialize the topic by comparing a fetus to a turnip.
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Old 02-09-2015, 12:57 PM
 
18,315 posts, read 10,393,778 times
Reputation: 13379
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
... and your refutations were based on what?

You are clearly trying to trivialize the topic by comparing a fetus to a turnip.
Well at least he's not as morally and ethically conflicted as one would be decrying abortion but embracing the death penalty.
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Old 02-09-2015, 01:44 PM
 
3,275 posts, read 3,701,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
... and your refutations were based on what?

You are clearly trying to trivialize the topic by comparing a fetus to a turnip.
Science. You know, that subject they teach in high school. If you had paid attention, you'd know that a fetus starts out as a lump of cells. It gradually develops into a human being. The reasons why most doctors refuse to perform elective abortions after 5 months is rather obvious. I don't see why you care so much. It's not like there are 8-month-old fetuses being aborted for fun.
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Old 02-09-2015, 03:48 PM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,997,011 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_gardener View Post
Science. You know, that subject they teach in high school. If you had paid attention, you'd know that a fetus starts out as a lump of cells. It gradually develops into a human being. The reasons why most doctors refuse to perform elective abortions after 5 months is rather obvious. I don't see why you care so much. It's not like there are 8-month-old fetuses being aborted for fun.
Did you read many High-School Biology text books that made comparisons between a human fetus and a turnip? Medical ethics is a complicated area and "high-school science" does not make you an expert in the field.

I dont care "so much". I just have a problem with you trivializing the issue.
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Old 02-09-2015, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,699 posts, read 8,499,560 times
Reputation: 4898
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_gardener View Post
Science. You know, that subject they teach in high school. If you had paid attention, you'd know that a fetus starts out as a lump of cells. It gradually develops into a human being. The reasons why most doctors refuse to perform elective abortions after 5 months is rather obvious. I don't see why you care so much. It's not like there are 8-month-old fetuses being aborted for fun.
Questions of ethical status are not at the end of the day scientific questions. Biology can tell me how DNA is replicated and how your eye picks up and transmits visual information, but it tells me nothing about why setting you on fire might be wrong. Science can, and must, inform the debate, but I think it's disingenuous to pretend a question like "when does it become wrong to a kill person" can be answered as definitely as one like "what concentration of morphine is required to bind 50% of mu opioid receptors." One question is simply a physical reality that can be quantified and that science is fully equipped to answer, for the other it can only supply data and it is for the philosophers to hack things out since there is no objective answer to the question.
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Old 02-09-2015, 06:01 PM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,997,011 times
Reputation: 1027
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIMBAM View Post
Questions of ethical status are not at the end of the day scientific questions. Biology can tell me how DNA is replicated and how your eye picks up and transmits visual information, but it tells me nothing about why setting you on fire might be wrong. Science can, and must, inform the debate, but I think it's disingenuous to pretend a question like "when does it become wrong to a kill person" can be answered as definitely as one like "what concentration of morphine is required to bind 50% of mu opioid receptors." One question is simply a physical reality that can be quantified and that science is fully equipped to answer, for the other it can only supply data and it is for the philosophers to hack things out since there is no objective answer to the question.
Great points.

To this I would like to add that even medical and biological events are sometimes difficult to interpret and act-on solely based on science. Take the example of human death.

When is a person dead? There is cardiopulmonary death, which on rare occasions can be non-permanent (patients have been revived from this state). One's heart could stop beating but organs could continue to function for hours.

And then you have brain death - which is mostly permanent.

Things become really murky when the dying person is an organ donor. When is it okay to remove the organs? Do you wait for brain death which can take hours and hours? We know that if there is a substantial delay in death (some times even >30 mins) then many of the organs can become un-transplantable.

We can only imagine the complexities behind defining the beginning of life if death is so complicated.
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Old 02-09-2015, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,024 posts, read 10,578,401 times
Reputation: 8913
Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
Canada is socialist. There you go, you got your desired answer.
Canada is in no way or manner "Socialist". It seems that the majority of American posters here on CD are complete political illiterates. It really does not surprise me in the least as even your top news anchors don't have a clue either. The blind leading the blind creates an entire nation without any vision!

Socialism is an economic and political system where the workers control the means of production, such as machinery or farmland, instead of their bosses. Those people that advocate this cooperative society are called socialists. Another key belief is that goods and services should be produced for the people's use, not for profit. Socialists believe that everything in society is made by the cooperative efforts of the people.

There are many varieties of socialism, so no one definition can apply to all of them; however, in all varieties, the workers own the means of production. The major differences between the different varieties are the role of the free market or planning, the method of ownership of the means of production, the role of management of workers and the government's role in the economy.

Canada is definitely a "Liberal" country but liberalism is in no way socialism.
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