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Old 05-31-2015, 04:10 PM
 
18,273 posts, read 10,374,392 times
Reputation: 13334

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Quote:
Originally Posted by billsfan1990 View Post
I have met quite a few right wing Americans who were quite passionate about their beliefs. Hell, Saturno is one of them.

Maybe not every waking minute of every day but as soon as the idea is suggested that stricter and more rational gun laws should come into play they just about soil themselves.
Oh for heaven's sake, get a grip!

Stricter and rational HANDGUN controls have been tried numerous times and it is your lack of understanding of American history that isn't grasping the nuances you need to keep discussing this issue in a rational manner. There's no need to become bellicose and snarky.

Americans, if there would be one nationality on the planet, predominantly consider the handgun as a tool just as Canadians considered the long gun a tool for generations.

We were, and still have vast wilderness areas, to this very day that have yet to see a footfall, so in that respect firearms will always play a part in Canada. I myself harken to a day when hunting throughout the pacific northwest while enjoying saved leave from The RCN, occasioned the carrying of both a rifle and an old Webley large frame .455 I inherited from my WWII vet father. Those were the days when I could walk into a logging operations cookhouse near someplace like Tungsten or Fort Simpson wearing that revolver in an old army surplus shoulder holster and apologize for bringing my firearms indoors but wasn't about to leave them on the porch unattended, then ask to buy a meal and sit and eat with lumberjacks who didn't bat an eye after they asked the perfunctory questions about what I had managed to bag already.

America was steeped in the history of having attained a population level prior to a law abiding society achievement, where the ownership of a firearm was paramount for survival and due in no small part to the horse being such an integral part of that, handguns became the order of the day.

The difference was stark in those days whereas population density was such that the occasion of danger was predominantly from wild animals in Canada with very few being of the two legged variety hence the rifle being the tool of choice to this very day.

American history is replete with the use of the handgun being a tool that tamed the west and their republic being formed through the taking up of arms to repel the British overseers. You cannot discount a couple of hundred years of history so entrenched in ownership of firearms having made it possible and throw into the mix the 2nd amendment (regardless of perceived intent) and not expect those living that history to not bridle at mention of restricting ownership.

Canada has no such affiliation with the firearm as being an integral part of their genesis and raison-d-etra.

Gunnutz, to use a term applied to those who must have the latest greatest and as many as possible, as a representative sampling of Americans, represent a small segment indeed, whereas those who believe firmly in the RIGHT of ownership would be a far greater proportion without probably ever desiring to own one themselves. You must be able to separate the two groups in your mind before referring to all and sundry as Americans obsessed with firearms.
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Old 05-31-2015, 05:23 PM
 
3,153 posts, read 2,071,996 times
Reputation: 1256
Quote:
Originally Posted by billsfan1990 View Post
No you're not. You're just some asshat American looking to stir **** up. Of course, in true American form, you think you know much more than you actually do. Well, you don't. As I, and just about every other Canadian on this thread has corrected you.

Once one is 18, so long as they pass a "background check" (whatever the hell that really means) one may be able to purchase anything from a pistol to a assault rifle in many states. Yes.

Texas is indeed one of the more passionate states regarding guns, yes.

Your ignorance about US gun laws is self explanatory....you cannot correct something you do not know anything about....there is no point in discussing with someone that is ignorant on a subject and opposed to listen......"whatever the hell really means to pass a background check??" (the NICS is federally mandated the way not by "some states")... whatever....


Quote:
I have met quite a few right wing Americans who were quite passionate about their beliefs. Hell, Saturno is one of them.

Am I a right wing nut?? You truly make me laugh, you do not know anything about me, you seem a textbook case of someone grossly misinformed that definitely has a strong opinion about something he/she does not know squat about.


Quote:
In the United States, however, exist gun enthusiasts. Whereby hunting is not the main focus, and rather explicitly guns are. Guns for shooting people, guns for opening doors, guns for creating art on the side of a pickup truck, etc. Guns guns guns guns guns.

My goodness, you are truly hilarious....very funny and very sad at the same time.....
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Old 05-31-2015, 05:25 PM
 
3,153 posts, read 2,071,996 times
Reputation: 1256
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Oh for heaven's sake, get a grip!

Stricter and rational HANDGUN controls have been tried numerous times and it is your lack of understanding of American history that isn't grasping the nuances you need to keep discussing this issue in a rational manner. There's no need to become bellicose and snarky.

Americans, if there would be one nationality on the planet, predominantly consider the handgun as a tool just as Canadians considered the long gun a tool for generations.

We were, and still have vast wilderness areas, to this very day that have yet to see a footfall, so in that respect firearms will always play a part in Canada. I myself harken to a day when hunting throughout the pacific northwest while enjoying saved leave from The RCN, occasioned the carrying of both a rifle and an old Webley large frame .455 I inherited from my WWII vet father. Those were the days when I could walk into a logging operations cookhouse near someplace like Tungsten or Fort Simpson wearing that revolver in an old army surplus shoulder holster and apologize for bringing my firearms indoors but wasn't about to leave them on the porch unattended, then ask to buy a meal and sit and eat with lumberjacks who didn't bat an eye after they asked the perfunctory questions about what I had managed to bag already.

America was steeped in the history of having attained a population level prior to a law abiding society achievement, where the ownership of a firearm was paramount for survival and due in no small part to the horse being such an integral part of that, handguns became the order of the day.

The difference was stark in those days whereas population density was such that the occasion of danger was predominantly from wild animals in Canada with very few being of the two legged variety hence the rifle being the tool of choice to this very day.

American history is replete with the use of the handgun being a tool that tamed the west and their republic being formed through the taking up of arms to repel the British overseers. You cannot discount a couple of hundred years of history so entrenched in ownership of firearms having made it possible and throw into the mix the 2nd amendment (regardless of perceived intent) and not expect those living that history to not bridle at mention of restricting ownership.

Canada has no such affiliation with the firearm as being an integral part of their genesis and raison-d-etra.

Gunnutz, to use a term applied to those who must have the latest greatest and as many as possible, as a representative sampling of Americans, represent a small segment indeed, whereas those who believe firmly in the RIGHT of ownership would be a far greater proportion without probably ever desiring to own one themselves. You must be able to separate the two groups in your mind before referring to all and sundry as Americans obsessed with firearms.

You are truly wasting your time...this person is dumber than a fence post on the subject...let him bask in his beliefs....
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Old 05-31-2015, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Montreal
359 posts, read 264,304 times
Reputation: 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
Over the top reaction?? Why you say that?? Not at all, I just had to repeat myself over and over since you follow the failed logic + legal weapons = + gun violence.....it is not true.


Nobody dispute that the US has more gun crime per capita then the US....there are several reasons for it but more gun friendly legislation is not one of them.

More accidental gun death than Canada?? Obviously there are more guns around, simple statistics....I bet there are more ski accidents per capita in Switzerland compared to Spain ...but the CDC charts shows it is negligible compared to other source of accidental death.

Getting a handgun in Canada involves more bureaucratic red tape than the US, it does not mean is not possible to get it... that is all I was trying to say.
I am not pro-gun but I have to hand it to you for contributing actual facts and statistics to the conversation. It has made me think about the topic.

Also, those saying "we don't have murders like that in Canada", Billsfan, I am surprised at this attitude. 1 murder is too many and we have plenty in Canada, certainly enough that it isn't something to gloat about. Gloating that Canada has less murders per capita than the US dissapoints me. What would you think if a guy from Minnesota said he has a lower murder rate per capita than (insert Canadian province)? It isn't a game. Are you doing anything to help other people are just using humanity's vices to gain a small point against your neighbour?
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Old 05-31-2015, 05:40 PM
 
Location: Montreal
359 posts, read 264,304 times
Reputation: 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post
Agree with Nat and Billsfan, at least insofar as handguns go. Gun club membership, letters from the range officers, police visiting your home to ensure safe storage, permits to purchase, permits to transport (not "carry") between home and club--it's a PITA to own a handgun. Long guns (rifles and shotguns) are somewhat easier to own, but even they must be stored safely, separate from ammunition.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: any Canadian who claims, on a application to purchase/handle/etc., to need a gun of any sort "for protection" will forever be barred from owning one.
Chevy Spoons, the people committing the overwhelming majority of violent crime don't register their guns. I am skeptical that if the US banned guns today and confiscated every registered firearm that the murder rate would drop. Based on demographics, the people committing most violent crime are highly unlikely to be American right wingers.

With your background in law, what do you think, Chevy Spoons?
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Old 05-31-2015, 06:41 PM
 
3,153 posts, read 2,071,996 times
Reputation: 1256
Quote:
Originally Posted by PBeauchamp View Post
The people committing the overwhelming majority of violent crime don't register their guns. I am skeptical that if the US banned guns today and confiscated every registered firearm that the murder rate would drop. Based on demographics, the people committing most violent crime are highly unlikely to be American right wingers.
Exactly right...the best illegal weapon is the one that the ATF does not even know the existence of it....and even the most fanatical "right wing gun nuts" (a negligible minority among gun enthusiasts) that keep their rifles in their pick-up trucks and go to the range every day are probably the last people you have to worry about committing a violent crime.

The problem is that when you deal with uninformed people that are spoon fed misinformation and have a strong ideological bent is difficult to have a conversation based on facts and figures....our friend billsfan1990 for example still thinks you can buy an "assault rifle" in the US.....hogwash....

Another gem of wisdom...he thinks that the vast majority of gun enthusiasts are "right wing whackos".....now you realize that it is impossible to actually discuss things seriously when your counterpart hold such childish, naive views.
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Old 05-31-2015, 08:00 PM
 
3,153 posts, read 2,071,996 times
Reputation: 1256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxxie1989 View Post
We have no automatic guns and there's no concealed carry. Our "minority groups" as you call them have fair and equal rights in addition to access to healthcare. That is why....


Here is another informed one.....US "minority groups" do not have equal rights?? ...and we do not have automatic guns in the US....
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Old 05-31-2015, 08:43 PM
 
18,273 posts, read 10,374,392 times
Reputation: 13334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxxie1989 View Post
I thouget there was some states where automatic firearm access was incredibly easy?

And don't some young black men have a hard time getting access to afforable healthcare or post secondary education? I know you have some programs for single women with young kids to get health coverage at an afforable rate but I have read young minority men often get very little of anything healthcare wise or in terms of other services.

Maxie; as a Canadian senior frequenting these boards, my suggestion would be to frame a question with a genuine desire to know and also a genuine admission from the outset that you request this information from a standpoint of knowing nothing whatsoever.

Making the mistake, as I have myself sometimes made, of offering a supposition, then asking for clarification indicates you are assuming you're correct and demanding refutation. Sorta rude.

Fully automatic weapons are not easily obtained LEGALLY in the U.S. any more than a fully auto can be purchased legally in Canada. As you've used the word "access"; in that context perhaps paying to fire a fully automatic weapon at an authorized range under supervision may be possible but probably not as easy as you think.

I will not offer rebuttal on the latter regarding minorities as it is my belief you've conflated opportunity with desire. Having one without having the other may not be construed as being denied.
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Old 05-31-2015, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Murrieta California
2,994 posts, read 3,748,093 times
Reputation: 2127
All of this talk about gun laws is absurd. Criminals don't pay any attention to gun laws or any law for that matter. There is certainly no shortage of guns in Surrey British Columbia with the shootings spree taking place there. The gangs in Surrey just like gangs in Chicago or any other city in the US or Canada have no trouble getting guns. They certainly don't obtain them legally.
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Old 05-31-2015, 09:18 PM
 
3,153 posts, read 2,071,996 times
Reputation: 1256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxxie1989 View Post
I thouget there was some states where automatic firearm access was incredibly easy?

Absolutely no, in practice you cannot longer access fully automatic weapons in the US since 1968. They started to be strictly regulated in 1934, the 1968 Gun Control Act banned them for all practical intent and purposes and in 1986 they did become even more restricted.

In theory they are legal but only the ones produced until 1968 (and some until 1986), they are highly restricted and have an extra registry.

In practice the legal fully automatic weapons in the US are well kept inside wealthy collector safes and are worth their weight in gold in the collector market.

The owner may take them on rare occasions (very rare) at a gun range that accept fully automatic fire (very few) and he will likely fire only few shots to minimize the risk of ruining them.

The chances of a legal fully automatic weapon being used on a crime are exactly zero. Automatic weapons used in crimes are always botched modified jobs on legal semi automatic guns or illegally imported in the black market.

There is more....if for example ATF finds out that I own a supposedly legal semi auto weapon but that started its life as a fully automatic gun and modified with a certification even outside the US I'm in a sea of trouble and I stare at a jail sentence.....I cannot even claim technical ignorance.....quite few people got into serious trouble years ago with a batch of legally imported semi auto AK that were found to be original fully automatic specimen modified by the foreign dealer prior to being shipped to the US.

I believe Canada gun legislation accept semi automatic guns that started life as fully automatic ones and modified by a certified technician....not in the US....once automatic is legally treated always as an automatic no matter what.

Last edited by saturno_v; 05-31-2015 at 09:43 PM..
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