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Old 05-30-2015, 12:48 AM
 
Location: Kitchener
86 posts, read 125,679 times
Reputation: 64

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Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post
Sorry but you would have to show me the rates that suggest a dramitic difference in crime rates from each country.. to me it seems both countries are pretty safe.

there is no such thing as a country having a mentality, i live in the US and am a citizen and it is very rare to me to resort to violence... i find your group mentality interesting and confusing. lol.

i am also not in a state of fear.

that gang culture is not really that widespread in the united states.

before you make more strange post like this, keep in mind the population of the usa is over 300 million and each human being is unique in their own way... but i'm sure you already know that and you just made that post to stir up some drama.
The difference is cultural though. You may not be but a lot of Americans are indeed in a state of fear. Why else would their right to bear arms in public be so important to them, and not be considered antiquated policy? But on one side I think you do have the thug element in American society, or else a perceived thug element that puts everyone else in a state of panic and defensiveness. Who in fact shoots first is debatable.
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Old 05-30-2015, 01:00 AM
 
Location: M I N N E S O T A
14,848 posts, read 21,376,619 times
Reputation: 9263
Quote:
Originally Posted by billsfan1990 View Post
The difference is cultural though. You may not be but a lot of Americans are indeed in a state of fear. Why else would their right to bear arms in public be so important to them, and not be considered antiquated policy? But on one side I think you do have the thug element in American society, or else a perceived thug element that puts everyone else in a state of panic and defensiveness. Who in fact shoots first is debatable.
Would you be so kind to share where you get the impression that.... Americans are in a state of fear.... right to bear arms in public are important to us... Americans are in a state of panic and defensiveness.

see i am not a big fan of guns either but i know most gun owners don't go around shooting random people, if they did Canada would have more people than America.

and what is it like the second you cross the imaginary line that we like to call the "US-Canada border" ?
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Old 05-30-2015, 02:52 AM
 
3,861 posts, read 3,230,270 times
Reputation: 1645
Quote:
Originally Posted by billsfan1990 View Post
Not really. Most murders that I hear of happening are usually caused by stabbings or from fists and feet. You fail to understand how truly difficult it is to come across a firearm here unless you are admitted to one legally.

The state thoroughly understands who and who not to give firearms to as well and the process of acquiring one is stringent and lengthy. A premeditated murderer has about zero chance of just simply getting one. Unless they like break into someones house with an ax and break open the gun cabinet or something. Cause Canadians are also pretty law abiding when it comes to locking up firearms when they have them.

There could be murderers that are willing to go through the lengthy demanding process of acquiring a firearm legally but I don't see one with enough patience in going through that, fortunately.

And you fail to understand that obtaining a gun illegally in the US is very difficult....


You can get a gun in Canada...is not that difficult.....you just cannot get a Concealed Weapon Permit....but if you are intent to commit a crime you do not need a Concealed Permit.

I'm not disputing the difference in gun crime between the US and Canada...I'm disputing your conclusion: + gun rights = + gun crime...is simply false on all counts.


By the way, gun ownership is at an historically high point in the US (number of NICS background checks and Concealed Permit issued) and gun violence is at historically low....so....
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Old 05-30-2015, 03:00 AM
 
3,861 posts, read 3,230,270 times
Reputation: 1645
Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post
Would you be so kind to share where you get the impression that.... Americans are in a state of fear.... right to bear arms in public are important to us... Americans are in a state of panic and defensiveness.

see i am not a big fan of guns either but i know most gun owners don't go around shooting random people, if they did Canada would have more people than America.

and what is it like the second you cross the imaginary line that we like to call the "US-Canada border" ?


He is right the problem is cultural...simply people from other countries do not understand the spirit of our 2A...it has nothing to do with living in panic, fear, being defensive.....or with loving guns in the first place.

The 2A is a part of what the essence of America is.
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Old 05-30-2015, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
18,492 posts, read 15,337,259 times
Reputation: 11929
Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
What is incredibly naive instead is still to believe that the 2A has anything to do with gun violence and murders....but you know, it is easy and comfortable to cling to your own belief and group think rather than apply logic reasoning (which unfortunately is in very short supply among the anti-gun crowd) You may want to brush up your info and read here:


How to legally buy a gun in Canada


https://www.canadaammo.com/


Yes you can get a handgun in Canada and it is relatively easy....what you cannot get easily is a concealed pistol permit which is the last thing someone has in mind if he/she is intent to commit a murder.

CCW holders do not commit gun crimes....the vast majority (I would say almost the totality) of gun crimes in US are committed from people that cannot legally have access to firearms.

If you sell a firearm to someone not legally entitled to (it does not matter if you are a dealer or a private citizen) you risk serious jail time, the ATF does not mess around with this.

When it comes to explaining gun crime rates between the two countries, the different gun legislation between the US and Canada plays a very little (I would say insignificant) part. Not to mention the open border between the two countries where firearms from the south could flow very easily.

I'm a CCW holder (which is tied to your Driving License) and the Canadian border agent knows it very well when I cross the border..other than the routine question "Do you carry any firearms??" my car never got checked...not once.


Different mentality about guns?? Ever been in Alberta?? It is a way more gun friendly environment than several US big cities.
You don't understand Canadian gun laws. Getting a license does not mean you have the right to carry a handgun. It is used MAINLY for people whose jobs require carrying a firearm AND those who belong to gun clubs. Those who belong to gun clubs must get an " authorization to transport " which specifies where and how they can transport the gun, usually ONLY to the gun club.

Target Shooters - Royal Canadian Mounted Police

They don't give these easily for hand guns. Other guns for target practice is easier since handguns are considered RESTRICTED weapons in Canada A BIG difference than the US.

As for the 2nd amendment, if it didn't exist, do you think the US would have so many guns, especially hand guns laying around? Do you think laws about open carry and concealed carry would pass without it? Do you think that millions in the US equate owning a gun as a right and therefore do so?
Do you not get connection? What are the odds of a criminal breaking into a house in the US and finding a hand gun compared to Canada?

Alberta? You're kidding right? People in Calgary or Edmonton, not so much. Rural people do have guns, mainly rifles, not hand guns. No one is trying to take those away.

That said, there is NO gun culture in Canada like there is in the US. We do NOT have the same mentality equating owning a gun as a right, ESPECIALLY hand guns.

Guns are confiscated at the border a lot. They ask me as well going south. They never search me either. We obviously have clean records and don't set off alarm bells for them. Good for us.

However, where are those illegal guns coming from? They ain't flowing south now are they?
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Old 05-30-2015, 06:32 PM
 
244 posts, read 359,853 times
Reputation: 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerFilms View Post
You are completely full of crap, and wicked racist.

Sincerely, a Cuban American of European ancestry that is educated, from a middle class background, a legal immigrant, which left the racist and arrogant city of Miami to Texas, and whose romantic partner is a Mexican American. Go *beep* yourself. Miami has a horrible standard of living, and I really do not wish to move back there but I will have to to graduate college next spring. I hate people in Miami with your attitude. "My Latinos are better than yours." Get outta here with that garbage!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerFilms View Post
No, slavery doesn't have ALL to do with it, but it has to do with it substantially. Why is it that white Americans seem to think that slavery was SOOOOO long ago? My friend's great grandma is still alive and kicking, and her parents were both born as slaves. That's a living African American person who personally KNEW former slaves. And it's not like after slavery, life exponentially improved for blacks. It took another hundred years before actual progress would be made. That's an extra century after the abolition of slavery where blacks were legally held back from being successful in life. Discrimination has long lasting effects.

No, racism and slavery's long lasting legacy is not the sole or even main reason for the US crime rate. After all, small rural towns in the south and west which are over 90% white are not always immune of crime. However to take slavery out of the equation or to deny it's long lasting impact is ignorant.
Both posts are on point. That user who made the post about Latinos should be banned. As for the second post, it seems to be a phenomenon that people think that anything happened before they were born happened "a really long time ago". Even ignoring slavery which was not that many generations ago, there was legislation in the US that oppressed African Americans into the 60s, so I'll never understand why people try to pretend that oppression is not a huge reason why the African American community is so far behind in terms of wealth and prosperity.
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Old 05-30-2015, 08:03 PM
 
3,861 posts, read 3,230,270 times
Reputation: 1645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
You don't understand Canadian gun laws. Getting a license does not mean you have the right to carry a handgun. It is used MAINLY for people whose jobs require carrying a firearm AND those who belong to gun clubs. Those who belong to gun clubs must get an " authorization to transport " which specifies where and how they can transport the gun, usually ONLY to the gun club.

Target Shooters - Royal Canadian Mounted Police

They don't give these easily for hand guns. Other guns for target practice is easier since handguns are considered RESTRICTED weapons in Canada A BIG difference than the US.
And you keep not understanding that if I want to commit a crime I do not give a hoot about not having a permit to transport...I have the gun in my possession, it is all that matter....a law does not physically prevent me to commit a crime...got it??? That saID, Legal gun owners do not usually commit crimes, so having more permissive legislation in the US does not change anything....the reason are to be searched elsewhere....it is not that much easier than Canada for a person not legally entitled to have a gun to get one in the US from legal channels.....no sane person/dealer would risk serious and I mean serious jail time to sell a firearm to a prohibited person....and before you say it there is no gun show loophole, that is patently false.

Sandy Hook can technically happen in Canada as easily.

Quote:
As for the 2nd amendment, if it didn't exist, do you think the US would have so many guns, especially hand guns laying around? Do you think laws about open carry and concealed carry would pass without it? Do you think that millions in the US equate owning a gun as a right and therefore do so?
Do you not get connection? What are the odds of a criminal breaking into a house in the US and finding a hand gun compared to Canada?
...and what this has to do with gun crimes?? Exactly nothing....the murder map I posted from the UN 2012 study should have put to rest that nonsense but evidently you still like to argue.


Illegal firearms is an industry with their own channel distributions and theft happens at wholesale/dealers level (even from places with robust security), like any illegal industry, if there is a market they set up shop, US, Canada, Brazil or whenever, regardless of legislation...similarly to illegal drugs.

Italy has very tight gun legislation but eastern European illegally imported guns flooded the market since the early 1990s

Legal gun owners usually keep firearms in safes and I would love to see the statistics of gun crimes perpetrated by guns stolen in house robberies...I'm ready to bet is marginal....


Quote:
Alberta? You're kidding right? People in Calgary or Edmonton, not so much. Rural people do have guns, mainly rifles, not hand guns. No one is trying to take those away.
Yes Alberta...and I replied to your general point about "gun mentality".


Ohh. and before you mention some sort of "gun accident epidemic", another famous BS claim from the anti gun folks, let me post couple of data points from the Center for Disease Control...







Again....data prove you wrong my friend.....violent crime at historically low, gun ownership at historically high....case closed indeed.

Last edited by saturno_v; 05-30-2015 at 08:37 PM..
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Old 05-30-2015, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
18,492 posts, read 15,337,259 times
Reputation: 11929
Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
And you keep not understanding that if I want to commit a crime I do not give a hoot about not having a permit to transport...I have the gun in my possession, it is all that matter....a law does not physically prevent me to commit a crime...got it??? That saID, Legal gun owners do not usually commit crimes, so having more permissive legislation in the US does not change anything....the reason are to be searched elsewhere....it is not that much easier than Canada for a person not legally entitled to have a gun to get one in the US from legal channels.....no sane person/dealer would risk serious and I mean serious jail time to sell a firearm to a prohibited person....and before you say it there is no gun show loophole, that is patently false.

Sandy Hook can technically happen in Canada as easily.



...and what this has to do with gun crimes?? Exactly nothing....the murder map I posted from the UN 2012 study should have put to rest that nonsense but evidently you still like to argue.


Illegal firearms is an industry with their own channel distributions and theft happens at wholesale/dealers level (even from places with robust security), like any illegal industry, if there is a market they set up shop, US, Canada, Brazil or whenever, regardless of legislation...similarly to illegal drugs.

Italy has very tight gun legislation but eastern European illegally imported guns flooded the market since the early 1990s

Legal gun owners usually keep firearms in safes and I would love to see the statistics of gun crimes perpetrated by guns stolen in house robberies...I'm ready to bet is marginal....




Yes Alberta...and I replied to your general point about "gun mentality".


Ohh. and before you mention some sort of "gun accident epidemic", another famous BS claim from the anti gun folks, let me post couple of data points from the Center for Disease Control...







Again....data prove you wrong my friend.....violent crime at historically low, gun ownership at historically high....case closed indeed.
Wow, talk about an over the top reaction. I simply pointed out to you that your incorrect assumption that getting a hand gun in Canada was easy. It's not.

Large charts. Not impressive.

Simple fact. The US has more gun crimes and more accidental gun deaths than Canada per capita. Way, way more.

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate

I really don't understand your reaction to the simple facts.
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Old 05-30-2015, 09:55 PM
 
3,861 posts, read 3,230,270 times
Reputation: 1645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
Wow, talk about an over the top reaction. I simply pointed out to you that your incorrect assumption that getting a hand gun in Canada was easy. It's not.

Large charts. Not impressive.

Simple fact. The US has more gun crimes and more accidental gun deaths than Canada per capita. Way, way more.

Gun Violence Archive

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I really don't understand your reaction to the simple facts.

Over the top reaction?? Why you say that?? Not at all, I just had to repeat myself over and over since you follow the failed logic + legal weapons = + gun violence.....it is not true.


Nobody dispute that the US has more gun crime per capita then the US....there are several reasons for it but more gun friendly legislation is not one of them.

More accidental gun death than Canada?? Obviously there are more guns around, simple statistics....I bet there are more ski accidents per capita in Switzerland compared to Spain ...but the CDC charts shows it is negligible compared to other source of accidental death.

Getting a handgun in Canada involves more bureaucratic red tape than the US, it does not mean is not possible to get it... that is all I was trying to say.
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Old 05-30-2015, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Kitchener
86 posts, read 125,679 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
And you fail to understand that obtaining a gun illegally in the US is very difficult....


You can get a gun in Canada...is not that difficult.....you just cannot get a Concealed Weapon Permit....but if you are intent to commit a crime you do not need a Concealed Permit.

I'm not disputing the difference in gun crime between the US and Canada...I'm disputing your conclusion: + gun rights = + gun crime...is simply false on all counts.


By the way, gun ownership is at an historically high point in the US (number of NICS background checks and Concealed Permit issued) and gun violence is at historically low....so....

I think I know my country a little more than you do. NO...YOU CAN NOT GET A GUN EASILY IN CANADA. Jesus lol. Legal gun owners are asked to show thorough documentation of their right to own a firearm every time they buy one, and there are regular checkups on the number of firearms they own. Unless someone who legally has a gun license decides to lend their firearm to someone who is ill-intended. Every gun in Canada is strictly accounted for though, and owners have to keep up to date with history and other information of their firearm, so, when that weapon shows up as evidence in a murder trial the lender is clearly visible. It harks back to my argument before. Why would someone who goes through the lengthy and stringent process of getting a firearm license here do so just to own a firearm responsible in a murder.

One reason gun homicides in the US are so common is because just about any joe blow in a lot of states can walk in and buy one.
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