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Old 06-24-2015, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,139,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthYorkEd View Post
All that spiritual, emotional, and psychological fulfilment around sex and relationships is just biology. Genes want to reproduce, so your hormones and emotions are manipulated to accomplish that goal.

All the feelings of love and lust are just your brain on hormones. There is nothing mystical or spiritual about it, other than what we invent.

This is why sex is usually hot and heavy during courtship of a potential mate, then it (generally) drops considerably after marriage and kids. Mission accomplished, the genes cool their jets.

.
Sex is a very complicated and individual thing depending on the person. With that said, I have to question anyone's authority on the matter who just connects sex with marriage and kids and passing along their gene pool because sex is far more multi-faceted than that. I'm gay and have had a very active sex life with partners for 20 years now and I can tell you I have never had any desire to pass along my gene pool to a woman.. Enjoying sex with my partners though with or without emotions has been a constant for me and will be until the day I die.. Do I care if some people like that, approve of it or judge that - nope!
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Old 06-25-2015, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
564 posts, read 878,158 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Sex is a very complicated and individual thing depending on the person...I have never had any desire to pass along my gene pool to a woman.
I certainly didn't mean to imply that it wasn't, nor that there is a desire on a conscious level to propagate the genetic code. My argument was mostly as a rebuttal to those who seek to explain sex in spiritual or mystical terms, as there are often heavy emotions involved (the morality arguments). The fact is, it can be an immensely pleasurable act, with whomever we choose, and for whatever purpose we choose.

But things like "love" and "passion" are almost always chemically-driven abstractions, mixed within the petri dish of our brains and urging us to behave in certain ways, one of which is a biological imperative to get our seed out there. Making sex feel so good is nature's "trick" in getting us to spill as much of it as we can. Some will end up in wombs. Some in other places.

I do think sexual interest generally (generally!) abates after the societal norms of marriage and family have been satisfied. This is due to a variety of reasons, age, physical decline, lack of interest in a partner, etc, but one of them is that the seed no longer needs to be spread, so the hormones responsible for juicing us up and having us snorting like bulls take a step back. Just a normal phase of life, and one which can be overcome and modified as we see fit.
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Old 06-25-2015, 11:38 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,139,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthYorkEd View Post
I certainly didn't mean to imply that it wasn't, nor that there is a desire on a conscious level to propagate the genetic code. My argument was mostly as a rebuttal to those who seek to explain sex in spiritual or mystical terms, as there are often heavy emotions involved (the morality arguments). The fact is, it can be an immensely pleasurable act, with whomever we choose, and for whatever purpose we choose.

But things like "love" and "passion" are almost always chemically-driven abstractions, mixed within the petri dish of our brains and urging us to behave in certain ways, one of which is a biological imperative to get our seed out there. Making sex feel so good is nature's "trick" in getting us to spill as much of it as we can. Some will end up in wombs. Some in other places.

I do think sexual interest generally (generally!) abates after the societal norms of marriage and family have been satisfied. This is due to a variety of reasons, age, physical decline, lack of interest in a partner, etc, but one of them is that the seed no longer needs to be spread, so the hormones responsible for juicing us up and having us snorting like bulls take a step back. Just a normal phase of life, and one which can be overcome and modified as we see fit.
This is all very biological lol

I'm not dismissing the soundness of the reasoning but I do agree for some even though there is a biological/chemical explanation for their desires/behaviours, they do connect it to something greater than that and for those I don't see this as something we should try to take away from.. Having sex with a partner you love vs a random sex buddy is a different experience for sure. Sex is a very personal thing and the more the person learns about what makes him/her tick when it comes to it the better they will be. As long as they don't try and apply their personal standards on me (or societies sex ed curriculum for that matter) than I'm fine with their mystical sexual explosions

I get you though... I've watched Bonobo chimp docs lol.... They don't analyze or mysticize/spiritualize the act much at all.. They'd have no qualms about Toronto's sex ed curriculum i'd imagine... They'd probably posit its too conservative

Anyway you seem to be an informed guy so thought you'd be interested in this article

http://samvak.tripod.com/sexnature.html

I personally find the link between homosexuality and the culling of the gene pool over time most logical!

Last edited by fusion2; 06-25-2015 at 11:52 AM..
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Old 06-28-2015, 12:42 AM
 
Location: BC Canada
831 posts, read 933,581 times
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So if the focus is to truly be on just SEX then why are we {or Ontarians} even having this conversation? If sex is nothing more than an exchange of bodily fluids and is strictly a biological function, why not just let the grade 1 kids watch a porno or better yet have the teacher do a live demonstration?

After reading that I'm sure a lot of you chuckled but that proves my point............sex doesn't happen in isolation. We have strict moral {yes moral} laws and social constraints around sex. For those of you who think I'm being moralistic answer this question...............when was the last time you or you have seen someone having sex at Walmart? When was the last time you saw a women REALLY check out the cucumbers right in the store? When was the last time M&D had sex right on the table while everyone else ate their Easter dinner around them?

Sex ALWAYS involves social mores, intimacy, human bonding, emotions, physical intimacy, and personal reflection {ie did I like it? did they? was that stupid? was that safe? am I anxiously looking forward to next time or am I dreading it?}. Of course it can also elicit all kinds of other responses from love to spiritual growth to revoltion , to emotional and/or physical pain, anxiety, rejection, sense of self worth, to say nothing of the potential physical ramifications.

We are sexual beings and we are also social beings and sex therefore cannot be discussed in a vacuum. Healthy Sexuality explores all these things where as Sex ED is purely biological.
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Old 06-28-2015, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
564 posts, read 878,158 times
Reputation: 984
Kids should be taught the biology of sex as soon as they are capable of understanding it. They should also be taught the consequences of sex so they can make informed decisions. The rest (i.e. the "baggage" ) is up to them, hopefully with wisdom from their parents.

All the other stuff comes as part of living in a society where people generally abstain from behaviours that are deemed offensive, harmful, or obnoxious to others. That's why we (generally) both poop and have sex behind closed doors and why we don't walk over to our neighbours house and steal them blind. Social contract. It is usually mutually beneficial to behave and act a certain way when part of a larger collective or group.
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Old 06-28-2015, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
564 posts, read 878,158 times
Reputation: 984
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
T
Anyway you seem to be an informed guy so thought you'd be interested in this article

The Natural Roots of Sexuality

I personally find the link between homosexuality and the culling of the gene pool over time most logical!
That's an interesting point. The common perception is that homosexuality (and apparent lack of sexual interest, such as we are seeing in young Japanese females) is on the rise, and not necessarily just as a result of increased awareness and social acceptance.

Wouldn't it be fascinating if nature was indeed steering us towards less reproduction, as a defence mechanism against population overgrowth? (Count me in -- my wife and I decided not to have kids years ago!)
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Old 06-28-2015, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,139,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthYorkEd View Post
That's an interesting point. The common perception is that homosexuality (and apparent lack of sexual interest, such as we are seeing in young Japanese females) is on the rise, and not necessarily just as a result of increased awareness and social acceptance.

Wouldn't it be fascinating if nature was indeed steering us towards less reproduction, as a defence mechanism against population overgrowth? (Count me in -- my wife and I decided not to have kids years ago!)
Well it certainly would be a logical method for nature to pursue with respect to population overgrowth but I think something like homosexuality is more complex..

There's also the element of pair-bonding and as I said culling of genetic material. So essentially, humans and other species are evolving over time and nature needs a way to cull a gene (essentially purging a gene from the pool that serves no further purpose).. This is possibly why homosexuality has existed in nature probably for as long or almost as long as sex entered into the picture (beyond just an Amoeba engaging in cell division), nature constantly needs to 'dead end' if you will certain genes over time and constantly. So, i'd say its more than just population overgrowth, though I do agree - homosexuality or even asexual type behaviours would certainly be logical mechanisms for nature to deal with a planet where one species is truly overextending its reach.
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Old 06-28-2015, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,139,702 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooguy View Post
So if the focus is to truly be on just SEX then why are we {or Ontarians} even having this conversation? If sex is nothing more than an exchange of bodily fluids and is strictly a biological function, why not just let the grade 1 kids watch a porno or better yet have the teacher do a live demonstration?

After reading that I'm sure a lot of you chuckled but that proves my point............sex doesn't happen in isolation. We have strict moral {yes moral} laws and social constraints around sex. For those of you who think I'm being moralistic answer this question...............when was the last time you or you have seen someone having sex at Walmart? When was the last time you saw a women REALLY check out the cucumbers right in the store? When was the last time M&D had sex right on the table while everyone else ate their Easter dinner around them?

Sex ALWAYS involves social mores, intimacy, human bonding, emotions, physical intimacy, and personal reflection {ie did I like it? did they? was that stupid? was that safe? am I anxiously looking forward to next time or am I dreading it?}. Of course it can also elicit all kinds of other responses from love to spiritual growth to revoltion , to emotional and/or physical pain, anxiety, rejection, sense of self worth, to say nothing of the potential physical ramifications.

We are sexual beings and we are also social beings and sex therefore cannot be discussed in a vacuum. Healthy Sexuality explores all these things where as Sex ED is purely biological.
I think you're applying your construct of sex and trying to impose it on others. For some yes, Sex is simply an exchange a fluids.. A random romp in the hay to let off steam.. Good exercise too! In my case and in the case of most human beings - a romp in the sack with a Friday night hookup is reality - even for straights. Gays trust me even more and we generally can shame any straight person when it comes to random hookups - like shopping for vegetables shop for a hookup. For lack of a better term, horny men and testosterone = sex.. There's nothing emotional about that in many cases nor does there have to be. Same with a woman and a man having sex, some people even woman do have sex just for the fun of it and they stick the middle finger up at societies expectations of them in terms of mores, intimacy prerequisites, bonding, emotions etc - they simply wanna get laid and yes I know both straight men and woman who do this and quite a bit actually. They feel more comfortable being honest about their sexuality with me because i'm gay.

On the flip, I've been with my partner now for 5 years.. Any intimacy we have IS going to involve a more complex set of factors - emotions, personal connection and bonding etc... Its more than just a romp but do I feel ashamed because as a single person I had hookups with people an it was just about the act.. Not at all - I enjoyed every minute of it and it felt good to shun a societies mores or constructs etc of what my sex life should be. It was and is what I want to be.

I do agree that sex ed should be multi-pronged and factor in the many facets of sexual connection/intimacy but without the need for any religious dogma introduced into the class. We are a secular society and all the better because of it.. How about we all start about being honest about sex and that with it and sorry for the pun, but that there isn't a one size fits all approach to it and yes yes yes most of us DO have sex in our lives just for the thrill of the ROMP - i'm sorry Mooguy to break it to you lol..

btw your example of showing porn or having a teacher demonstrate the act with grade 1 students was just silly!

Last edited by fusion2; 06-28-2015 at 11:43 AM..
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Old 06-28-2015, 07:26 PM
 
2,561 posts, read 2,179,513 times
Reputation: 1815
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooguy View Post
So if the focus is to truly be on just SEX then why are we {or Ontarians} even having this conversation? If sex is nothing more than an exchange of bodily fluids and is strictly a biological function, why not just let the grade 1 kids watch a porno or better yet have the teacher do a live demonstration?

After reading that I'm sure a lot of you chuckled but that proves my point............sex doesn't happen in isolation. We have strict moral {yes moral} laws and social constraints around sex. For those of you who think I'm being moralistic answer this question...............when was the last time you or you have seen someone having sex at Walmart? When was the last time you saw a women REALLY check out the cucumbers right in the store? When was the last time M&D had sex right on the table while everyone else ate their Easter dinner around them?

Sex ALWAYS involves social mores, intimacy, human bonding, emotions, physical intimacy, and personal reflection {ie did I like it? did they? was that stupid? was that safe? am I anxiously looking forward to next time or am I dreading it?}. Of course it can also elicit all kinds of other responses from love to spiritual growth to revoltion , to emotional and/or physical pain, anxiety, rejection, sense of self worth, to say nothing of the potential physical ramifications.

We are sexual beings and we are also social beings and sex therefore cannot be discussed in a vacuum. Healthy Sexuality explores all these things where as Sex ED is purely biological.
Tell me, where in the 2015 Revised Health and Physical Education curriculum is sex mentioned in isolation as a purely biological act? I posted the link to the actual 279 page curriculum, and have quoted line by line how sex is ALWAYS mentioned in the context of relationship, respect for personal choice and consent, and STI prevention. It seems that you didn't take in a single word of what is actually PUBLISHED on the ACTUAL curriculum document, and are instead repeating again and again your own "perception" of what "sex ed" is or should be in your ideal world. Once again, read the d**n curriculum. Lol.
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Old 07-01-2015, 10:18 PM
 
Location: BC Canada
831 posts, read 933,581 times
Reputation: 1119
I appreciate that it is not just the sex part that is being taught {which is why I think calling it Sexuality Ed would be both more reflective of the class and less controversial.

What I can't believe is that you guys seem to think that sex and sexuality can be taught in a moral vacuum. Sociology is in many ways the study of morality. Ideas and actions that we generally agree to in order to create a reasonably functional, prosperous, and sustainable community. Those values and morals certainly change over time but moral codes will always be part of society.

How many of you feel that a girl of 17 knows enough about sex and relationship to be able to make an informed decision?..................I certainly do. That said if she was to start having sex with a 70 year old man {not one in a position of power which is quite different} most of us would be morally outraged calling the 70 year old a sick pervert.

What about sexual relations between adults who are related? They are not "hurting" anyone but as a society we have encoded into law that such things are morally repugnant. We don't want, nor will we tolerate, brothers and sisters getting married but when asked why we just say "because it's disgusting"/ Well lots of things are disgusting but that doesn't mean they are illegal.

Sex in public places, discussing sex at inappropriate times or places, etc etc We have scores of legal, moral, and social limitations that we place upon sex as we do many other things.

These are values, laws, and ..............dare I say it...........morals that we as individuals in a society live within in order to maintain the cohesiveness of the society. Communities like families are institutions and institutions have rules whether you like them or not.
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