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Old 06-26-2015, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,697 posts, read 8,771,886 times
Reputation: 7314

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PBeauchamp View Post
Overall I don't see what is advantageous about being a part of Canada rather than a part of the US, considering the US is richer and significantly more advanced than anglo Canada, but in the end it doesn't matter. Here's a good question: why do so many anglo Canadians talk about provinces joining the US? As far as I know the US has never had any policy of foreign provinces just joining their country because they want to. I seriously doubt the Americans would readily accept any Canadian province into their country, if they would accept any at all. Something to take away from this is that in Quebec we don't carry the illogical anti-American fears that lockjaw anglo Canadians, so I think your logic of scaring us into staying in Canada lest we become an American state (Oh, the horror!) is flawed from the start.

You are right that our best move is to stay part of Canada and continue accepting the generous benefits offered by other provinces. The best part is that Quebec is more powerful as Canada than as an independent country. As one of two officially recognized cultures and languages our stretch is a lot more than that of say, British Columbia. As part of Canada we can use our disproportionate power to steer Canada towards what is best for Quebec, and obviously controlling 33 million people for our interests is preferable to controlling our own 9 million. We don't have to be big Canadian patriots to recognize this.

The best move for us is to use Canada since it has generously made itself available for our interests. Independence is a move for the future, for when Canada has run out of what we need. I estimate that we have a good 3-4 decades before Canada no longer serves us as well as an independence.
How is the US more advanced than Canada? Could you explain this further.

When people talk about Anglo provinces separating I'm sure many are coming at it from different angles.
On the west coast YOU do hear Americans talking about Cascadia, but probably not more than Canadians.
The proposed Flag for Cascadia was designed by an American.

So even though this movement seems more active in the US and is also wanting separation from the US these are US states wanting parts of Anglo Canada.

It's a movement that I don't agree with. For unlike you, I see the differences between English Canada and the U.S.

About Cascadia

The other issue in the western US right now is water. Trust me they are looking northward. There were even US plans years ago to create a huge reservoir, covering a sizeable piece of land in B.C. It never went anywhere, but there was no consultation with B.C. or Canada on it.

"In 2008, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who has a master’s degree in environmental law, warned that Canada should resist the urge to help America with it water problem. Kennedy said the U.S. was about to come knocking on Canada’s door.
“If you talk to government officials, everybody says they are looking for Canada to bail them out,” he told a crowd in Banff. Kennedy said huge commodity transfers of water won’t help the underlying issue, which is that the U.S. needs to become water self-sustainable."

Should Canada Share Its Water With The World? - Cantech Letter

As history shows, when the US wants something, it will go after it. I'm not talking invasions in this case, but trade wars and other political means to squeeze Canada into doing something that may not benefit Canada as it should.

So yes, Americans WOULD accept provinces into their country. In fact some in California may be licking their lips right now.

As for Quebec being sucked into the US if it separates. Who knows? There is documentation that shows at least in 1995, if the Yes side won, that the US wasn't ready to accept Quebec as independent and even saying that the NAFTA agreement would no longer apply to Quebec.
So at the very least, Quebec would be in a position of having to change.
Even what is currently Quebec will not be the same. The natives in the North of Quebec aren't big on separation and will fight to stay within Canada.

As for Quebec fears of becoming American vs Anglo Canadians. I don't see it that way. The language laws are often described as a fence against the mass of English speakers in North American....which we all know the majority are American. You may not fear becoming American, but you do fear losing your language because of them. Or are you afraid of us?

"As part of Canada we can use our disproportionate power to steer Canada towards what is best for Quebec, and obviously controlling 33 million people for our interests is preferable to controlling our own 9 million'

A bit over the top, no? Quebec does have a reputation with the ROC of being whiners. Even though people I know love Quebec and don't want it to separate, they certainly don't feel " controlled " by Quebec. That is just ludicrous. Certainly Quebec may be more " powerful " than provinces with less population, and some feel it gets more than it's fair share, but no one I know talks about Quebec in that way. A fantasy of yours perhaps?

Your last paragraph is truly arrogant and full of pie in the sky thinking.

Last edited by Natnasci; 06-26-2015 at 12:58 PM..
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Old 06-26-2015, 12:38 PM
 
Location: Ontario
52 posts, read 49,348 times
Reputation: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
How is the US more advanced than Canada? Could you explain this further.

When people talk about Anglo provinces separating I'm sure many are coming at it from different angles.
On the west coast YOU do hear Americans talking about Cascadia, but probably not more than Canadians.
The proposed Flag for Cascadia was designed by an American.

So even though this movement seems more active in the US and is also wanting separation from the US these are US states wanting parts of Anglo Canada.

It's a movement that I don't agree with. For unlike you, I see the differences between English Canada and the U.S.

About Cascadia

The other issue in the western US right now is water. Trust me they are looking northward. There were even US plans years ago to create a huge reservoir, covering a sizeable piece of land in B.C. years ago. It never went anywhere, but there was no consultation with B.C. or Canada on it.

"In 2008, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who has a master’s degree in environmental law, warned that Canada should resist the urge to help America with it water problem. Kennedy said the U.S. was about to come knocking on Canada’s door.
“If you talk to government officials, everybody says they are looking for Canada to bail them out,” he told a crowd in Banff. Kennedy said huge commodity transfers of water won’t help the underlying issue, which is that the U.S. needs to become water self-sustainable."

Should Canada Share Its Water With The World? - Cantech Letter

As history shows, when the US wants something, it will go after it. I'm not talking invasions in this case, but trade wars and other political means to squeeze Canada into doing something that may not benefit Canada as it should.

So yes, Americans WOULD accept provinces into their country. In fact some in California may be licking their lips right now.
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Old 06-26-2015, 12:45 PM
 
34,423 posts, read 41,527,053 times
Reputation: 29893
Whats with the face palm limelight? I thought Nats post was a well written rebuttal to PBs post..
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Old 06-26-2015, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,697 posts, read 8,771,886 times
Reputation: 7314
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
Whats with the face palm limelight? I thought Nats post was a well written rebuttal to PBs post..
Thanks Jambo.
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Old 06-26-2015, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Canada
325 posts, read 295,465 times
Reputation: 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
Whats with the face palm limelight? I thought Nats post was a well written rebuttal to PBs post..
The part about QC is right. The rest about the US annexing Canada is ignorant fearmongering and irrational paranoia. No one in California is licking their lips about a Canadian province joining the US. This type of ignorance makes me almost embarrassed to be a Canadian and it's what feeds the image of whiny baby Canadians.
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Old 06-26-2015, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,697 posts, read 8,771,886 times
Reputation: 7314
Quote:
Originally Posted by modernrebel View Post
The part about QC is right. The rest about the US annexing Canada is ignorant fearmongering and irrational paranoia. No one in California is licking their lips about a Canadian province joining the US. This type of ignorance makes me almost embarrassed to be a Canadian and it's what feeds the image of whiny baby Canadians.
Licking their lips in wanting our water, not grabbing B.C. as a state..It is NOT fear mongering. People are aware as the water crisis continues in the western US, that they will NEED water and it's going to come from???? It's not just me that is saying this.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...ticle17139638/

https://www.mcgill.ca/reporter/33/02/water/


Canada must be prepared and have a plan. To just throw off the possibility as " fear mongering " isn't going to serve us well.
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Old 06-26-2015, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Saint-Aimé-des-Lacs, Québec
163 posts, read 154,462 times
Reputation: 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
How is the US more advanced than Canada? Could you explain this further.

When people talk about Anglo provinces separating I'm sure many are coming at it from different angles.
On the west coast YOU do hear Americans talking about Cascadia, but probably not more than Canadians.
The proposed Flag for Cascadia was designed by an American.

So even though this movement seems more active in the US and is also wanting separation from the US these are US states wanting parts of Anglo Canada.

It's a movement that I don't agree with. For unlike you, I see the differences between English Canada and the U.S.

About Cascadia

The other issue in the western US right now is water. Trust me they are looking northward. There were even US plans years ago to create a huge reservoir, covering a sizeable piece of land in B.C. It never went anywhere, but there was no consultation with B.C. or Canada on it.

"In 2008, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who has a master’s degree in environmental law, warned that Canada should resist the urge to help America with it water problem. Kennedy said the U.S. was about to come knocking on Canada’s door.
“If you talk to government officials, everybody says they are looking for Canada to bail them out,” he told a crowd in Banff. Kennedy said huge commodity transfers of water won’t help the underlying issue, which is that the U.S. needs to become water self-sustainable."

Should Canada Share Its Water With The World? - Cantech Letter

As history shows, when the US wants something, it will go after it. I'm not talking invasions in this case, but trade wars and other political means to squeeze Canada into doing something that may not benefit Canada as it should.

So yes, Americans WOULD accept provinces into their country. In fact some in California may be licking their lips right now.

As for Quebec being sucked into the US if it separates. Who knows? There is documentation that shows at least in 1995, if the Yes side won, that the US wasn't ready to accept Quebec as independent and even saying that the NAFTA agreement would no longer apply to Quebec.
So at the very least, Quebec would be in a position of having to change.
Even what is currently Quebec will not be the same. The natives in the North of Quebec aren't big on separation and will fight to stay within Canada.

As for Quebec fears of becoming American vs Anglo Canadians. I don't see it that way. The language laws are often described as a fence against the mass of English speakers in North American....which we all know the majority are American. You may not fear becoming American, but you do fear losing your language because of them. Or are you afraid of us?

"As part of Canada we can use our disproportionate power to steer Canada towards what is best for Quebec, and obviously controlling 33 million people for our interests is preferable to controlling our own 9 million'

A bit over the top, no? Quebec does have a reputation with the ROC of being whiners. Even though people I know love Quebec and don't want it to separate, they certainly don't feel "controlled" by Quebec. That is just ludicrous. Certainly Quebec may be more "powerful" than provinces with less population, and some feel it gets more than it's fair share, but no one I know talks about Quebec in that way. A fantasy of yours perhaps?

Your last paragraph is truly arrogant and full of pie in the sky thinking.
You don't understand Québec. No, it is a cozy myth that Canada "protects" Québec from losing our language and heritage. I hate to burst the bubble but English Canada, not the US, is enemy #1 in this regard. What happened to all of the French speakers in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Ontario, Newfoundland, and Manitoba? I can assure you, it was not the big bad Americans who made them disappear. It is insulting to see English Canadians pat themself on the back as protectors of French when you were the ones who conquered us and made French for the untermensch in the first place. And that isn't dwelling on history, that is getting facts straight that you are twisting to support Canadian nationalism. As far as a I can tell Americans are no more anti-Québec than English Canadians, if anything they seem to be more sympathetic to Québec than the average English Canadian. So let's get our facts straight instead of doing myths and twisting truths. People like René Levesque protected Québec AGAINST the wants of most English Canadians and became demonized in Canada because of this.

Just like you say, we are a viewed as annoying whiners in Canada, but why is that? We are "whiners" because we dare to stand up for ourselves. This is something that apparently makes many Canadians very angry, that we dare recognize ourself and call the bluffs on myths. Like the untrue myth that English Canadians somehow have protected us from Americans, please give me a break because that is so devoid of truth. I am not a fan of the Pbeauchamp type Canadian unionists but from my view you are the one being just as arrogant.
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Old 06-26-2015, 01:38 PM
 
34,423 posts, read 41,527,053 times
Reputation: 29893
Quote:
Originally Posted by ViveLeQuebecLibre View Post
You don't understand Québec. No, it is a cozy myth that Canada "protects" Québec from losing our language and heritage. I hate to burst the bubble but English Canada, not the US, is enemy #1 in this regard.
Canada has made some effort to accommodate some level of federal bilingualism across the country even though the ROC is almost entirely English., you really believe the USA would be so accomodating to the French language and culture if Quebec came to be under American control?
As for What happened to all of the French speakers in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Ontario, Newfoundland, and Manitoba?whatever francophones were there decided it to be more convenient to speak English, if they were that concerned about their language why didnt they just do what the Quebecers did to protect their language?.
As for Cascadia? its an American pie in the sky separatist movement that seems to have British Columbia as part of its plan, BCers arent for the idea,,it will never happen.
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Old 06-26-2015, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,697 posts, read 8,771,886 times
Reputation: 7314
Quote:
Originally Posted by ViveLeQuebecLibre View Post
You don't understand Québec. No, it is a cozy myth that Canada "protects" Québec from losing our language and heritage. I hate to burst the bubble but English Canada, not the US, is enemy #1 in this regard. What happened to all of the French speakers in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Ontario, Newfoundland, and Manitoba? I can assure you, it was not the big bad Americans who made them disappear. It is insulting to see English Canadians pat themself on the back as protectors of French when you were the ones who conquered us and made French for the untermensch in the first place. And that isn't dwelling on history, that is getting facts straight that you are twisting to support Canadian nationalism. As far as a I can tell Americans are no more anti-Québec than English Canadians, if anything they seem to be more sympathetic to Québec than the average English Canadian. So let's get our facts straight instead of doing myths and twisting truths. People like René Levesque protected Québec AGAINST the wants of most English Canadians and became demonized in Canada because of this.

Just like you say, we are a viewed as annoying whiners in Canada, but why is that? We are "whiners" because we dare to stand up for ourselves. This is something that apparently makes many Canadians very angry, that we dare recognize ourself and call the bluffs on myths. Like the untrue myth that English Canadians somehow have protected us from Americans, please give me a break because that is so devoid of truth. I am not a fan of the Pbeauchamp type Canadian unionists but from my view you are the one being just as arrogant.
You are whining. What happened in the past is done. Canada has accommodated the French language within Canada since then, very well.
We are not the threat.
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Old 06-26-2015, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,959 posts, read 27,383,424 times
Reputation: 8612
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
Canada has made some effort to accommodate some level of federal bilingualism across the country even though the ROC is almost entirely English., .
The ROC wasn't always so "entirely English"...
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