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Old 06-30-2015, 08:08 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
22,393 posts, read 27,866,286 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Horse pucky! Neither of those two commenced this whinefest theatrical production.
Are you talking about this thread or our ongoing national drama?
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Old 06-30-2015, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
22,393 posts, read 27,866,286 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post
How many countries have celebrated their independence from the UK, from France, from Germany, from the Netherlands, from Belgium, in the 20th century? Plenty; and there have been British (or French or Dutch, etc.) soldiers standing at attention when their flag is lowered and the new one goes up, and parades, and happy children dancing in the streets. And how many of those, now free from their colonial masters (as I understand things, Quebec likes to paint itself as a "colony," though it is not, but let's just go with it for now), have been able to achieve anything like the standard of living of the "home" country?

.

I happen to know a good number of people whose countries became independent from their colonial powers from about 1960 and onwards.

It's true that a lot them (maybe a majority) will, when you get to know them, say that things were better run under the British or the French, for example.

But for some reason if they ask them if they think their country of origin should go back to living under British or French rule, all of them immediately say no.

In any event, it's largely irrelevant to this debate because these are all developing countries, whereas Quebec/Canada is the developed world with a much stronger institutional and societal framework, and no significant disparities between the (potentially) seceding entity and the entity it would be leaving behind.

Also, it's not true that Quebec likes to paint itself as a colony. Even in the independence movement only a smallish minority of militants would describe the Canada-Quebec relationship as "colonialist". Although certain behaviours and attitudes are sometimes denounced as "colonialist". But the overall relationship and set-up: very rarely so.

Last edited by Acajack; 06-30-2015 at 09:00 AM..
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Old 06-30-2015, 08:41 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
22,393 posts, read 27,866,286 times
Reputation: 8762
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyyc View Post
On the contrary, he's pointing out that the ownership of Federal institutions on Quebec soil do not solely belong to the people of Quebec to do with as they wish.

The better point would be that Quebec should remember that they didn't pay for all those things by themselves.
Well, Quebec also helps pay, through federal taxes, for stuff located outside Quebec, right?

I'd say that in cases of national independence, in almost all cases the two parties "call it even" when it comes to such issues, and don't try to nickel and dime each other over them. They usually have far bigger fish to fry.

I don't see why a hypothetical Quebec-Canada breakup would be much different. Although anything is possible of course.
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Old 06-30-2015, 08:45 AM
 
18,602 posts, read 10,632,652 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Are you talking about this thread or our ongoing national drama?
I quoted your response AJ so there would be no doubt, but your facetious reply is a good one nonetheless.
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Old 06-30-2015, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Hougary, Texberta
8,787 posts, read 11,281,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Well, Quebec also helps pay, through federal taxes, for stuff located outside Quebec, right?

I'd say that in cases of national independence, in almost all cases the two parties "call it even" when it comes to such issues, and don't try to nickel and dime each other over them. They usually have far bigger fish to fry.

I don't see why a hypothetical Quebec-Canada breakup would be much different. Although anything is possible of course.
Agreed.

It will be a good template for when Alberta leaves.
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Old 06-30-2015, 11:32 PM
 
34,967 posts, read 42,210,593 times
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After Alberta leaves i'm sure BC will be quick to follow, Manitoba and Saskatchewan may combine and also separate, Maritimes will unite and become part of the USA,Yukon will amalgamate with Alaska,Northern territories will be the country of the Inuit, leaving Quebec and Ontario which i think Ontario will quickly divest itself of the financial burden of Quebec leaving Quebec a separate nation by default. No more Canada and every one is happy eh!
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Old 07-01-2015, 01:59 AM
 
261 posts, read 207,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post
Maybe the time for nuance is past. Maybe it is time to take a good, hard, cold look at Quebec independence, well beyond the Canadian constitution. What it means economically, socially, and politically. What it would mean in the world community of nations.
Believe me, this has been done. Maybe in English Canada Quebec independence is seen as a "Latin" fancy that wouldn't pass any serious "Anglo-Saxon" cool-headed evaluation process, but it's one of the independence scenarios that's been the most academically studied in the world. In 1995, for example, the Quebec government (or at least Jacques Parizeau) had almost a minute-by-minute list of all that needed to be done starting from the moment where the CBC announced a Yes victory, to ensure that Quebec managed to get through it. If there's ever another referendum, there's no reason to believe it'd be any different.

And about the Clarity Act: it seems it's also popular in English Canada to view francophone Quebecers as a poor, uneducated people manipulated by their paranoid, malevolent elites (as opposed to anglophones who I guess are always clear-headed about what they're voting for), but the fact is that people knew what they were voting for in both referendums. As evidenced by the very high turnout, people knew this was some big deal.

The fact is, ChevySpoons, francophone Quebecers don't need the help of anglophones to know how to be a modern, developed, democratic society. We're able to do this by ourselves, no matter what horror stories your media might cook up about what would happen if Quebec separated, or the PQ came into power again, or Quebec passes some law about secularism, or (I dunno) the Quebec government seems to want to put some conditions on a pipeline the rest of Canada is all gung-ho about or something.
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Old 07-01-2015, 05:16 AM
 
744 posts, read 868,380 times
Reputation: 1604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post
Believe me, this has been done. Maybe in English Canada Quebec independence is seen as a "Latin" fancy that wouldn't pass any serious "Anglo-Saxon" cool-headed evaluation process, but it's one of the independence scenarios that's been the most academically studied in the world. In 1995, for example, the Quebec government (or at least Jacques Parizeau) had almost a minute-by-minute list of all that needed to be done starting from the moment where the CBC announced a Yes victory, to ensure that Quebec managed to get through it. If there's ever another referendum, there's no reason to believe it'd be any different..
You are absolutely correct. Whenever I meet a Quebecer who is complaining about how tough they have it, and how nasty the RoC is, I tell them they are 100% correct, and shouldn't have to put up with that crap and they should vote with their feet


Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post
And about the Clarity Act: it seems it's also popular in English Canada to view francophone Quebecers as a poor, uneducated people manipulated by their paranoid, malevolent elites (as opposed to anglophones who I guess are always clear-headed about what they're voting for), but the fact is that people knew what they were voting for in both referendums. As evidenced by the very high turnout, people knew this was some big deal
Alleluia

You shall overcome brother




Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post
The fact is, ChevySpoons, francophone Quebecers don't need the help of anglophones to know how to be a modern, developed, democratic society. We're able to do this by ourselves, no matter what horror stories your media might cook up about what would happen if Quebec separated, or the PQ came into power again, or Quebec passes some law about secularism, or (I dunno) the Quebec government seems to want to put some conditions on a pipeline the rest of Canada is all gung-ho about or something.
Keep the faith !! You can do it !!! Quebec is an extremely rich province! great financial stability ! amazing work ethics ! Last bastion of culture !!

You dont need Canada !! and we don't need you ..... its the perfect deal !!
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Old 07-01-2015, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,894 posts, read 11,401,678 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Here are some stats on the anglo population and how it evolved from 1996 to 2006. It appears more stable than in decline:

Table 12 Population of English mother tongue and population of English as the language spoken most often at home, Quebec, 1996 to 2006
Thanks AJ
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Old 07-01-2015, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,894 posts, read 11,401,678 times
Reputation: 3919
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post
Exactly. Thank you, BruSan. The Clarity Act assures everybody--from the federal government to the average Quebecer--that the question will be clearly-worded, so the people know exactly what they are voting for or against.

Trying to confuse voters with legalistic-sounding bafflegab is hardly democratic. What were voters voting for in 1980? Not independence; in a question measuring 106 words in English, they were merely granting the Quebec government permission to negotiate an agreement with the government of Canada for more powers.

And in 1995? In a question of 43 words (again, in English), voters were asked about "becoming sovereign" (not "becoming independent," or of "becoming a sovereign country," just "becoming sovereign" without any definition of what that meant--perhaps what was meant in 1980, but perhaps not; as that question was not on independence), but only after the Quebec government had made a formal offer to Canada in terms of a bill (which most voters likely had not read nor understood) and of an agreement (which, again, most voters likely had not read nor understood). The word "offer" is itself problematic, as an offer requires an acceptance before a deal can be struck; and if the party to whom the offer is made does not accept, then no deal can be struck. I am left unsure just what voters were being asked in 1995, outside of some vague notion of sovereignty after certain conditions occur, with no guarantees that the offer mentioned would be accepted.

Here's a question of just six words in English, that would fit the terms of the Clarity Act perfectly:

"Should Quebec be an independent country?"

A majority Yes vote to that question would pretty much force the Canadian government to the negotiating table, as per the Reference Re Secession of Quebec, [1998] 2 S.C.R. 217.
Thanks for providing uhem 'Clarity' in your posts Chevy lol... I think that the simpler and more to the point the question is the better for everyone involved.. I think in the recent Scottish vote it was a very simple question as well. The more convoluted and long winded it is, the more the result could be challenged so I think its better for not just Quebec but for all Provinces in Canada in terms of direction. I really hope none choose to go but at least when the goalposts are clearly defined we can all work with that. Nothing worse than ambiguity on topics so important to the nation.

Last edited by fusion2; 07-01-2015 at 11:53 AM..
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