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Old 06-22-2015, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,701 posts, read 8,775,044 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
another Quebec independence thread, really? Why not discuss this in one of the 100 similar posts that are already there instead of creating a brand new one? It is not like something new and major suddenly happened.

Mods should really do something to avoid the same topic being discussed in 180 different threads, with essentially the same people and same arguments. It is really tiring.
Butcha ya here Blanche, I mean Botti, butcha ya here.
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Old 06-22-2015, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,701 posts, read 8,775,044 times
Reputation: 7314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
OK, well for starters not everyone in Quebec sees Canada as "artificial", but speaking for those who are at least partly of that view (which includes me, but then again I kind of see all countries as artificial)...

Anyway...

Countries like the U.S. and Australia are seen as monocultural, or at least as having a single "culture of convergence" in spite of their size and diversity. In a sense I suppose they are seen as being more *logical* national entities than a country such as Canada.

As for Canada, it is seen as different from the monoculturals, and instead most people think it is a multinational state similar to Switzerland, Belgium, India, etc.

Canada is criticized or scorned or rejected by many because it (allegedly) refuses to accept this reality. And (allegedly again) has centralist-unitarian tendencies that stem from the fact that deep down inside it wants to be more of a "single identity" nation as opposed to a multi-polar one.

Switzerland is often held up in Quebec as an example of a multi-national country that gets it right.

Canada on the other hand is sometimes suspected of wanting to lump Quebec and francophones into a category of an immigrant/ethnic group like all the others in what is a wholly English-speaking country.

Cue comments like: "There are more people in my neighbourhood who speak Tagalog than French. Why the hell do we have French on our cereal boxes again?"
Honestly, I think your reasoning is pretty thin. Legally, where do countries become more " real " because of being mono-cultural?

Again, Quebec can not just unilaterally separate from Canada. The ROC has a huge voice is what happens.
Jambo can have this fantasy of " new directions " etc, but what the heck does that mean in a legal context??
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Old 06-22-2015, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Montreal
359 posts, read 264,798 times
Reputation: 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
OK, well for starters not everyone in Quebec sees Canada as "artificial", but speaking for those who are at least partly of that view (which includes me, but then again I kind of see all countries as artificial)...

Anyway...

Countries like the U.S. and Australia are seen as monocultural, or at least as having a single "culture of convergence" in spite of their size and diversity. In a sense I suppose they are seen as being more *logical* national entities than a country such as Canada.

As for Canada, it is seen as different from the monoculturals, and instead most people think it is a multinational state similar to Switzerland, Belgium, India, etc.

Canada is criticized or scorned or rejected by many because it (allegedly) refuses to accept this reality. And (allegedly again) has centralist-unitarian tendencies that stem from the fact that deep down inside it wants to be more of a "single identity" nation as opposed to a multi-polar one.

Switzerland is often held up in Quebec as an example of a multi-national country that gets it right.

Canada on the other hand is sometimes suspected of wanting to lump Quebec and francophones into a category of an immigrant/ethnic group like all the others in what is a wholly English-speaking country.

Cue comments like: "There are more people in my neighbourhood who speak Tagalog than French. Why the hell do we have French on our cereal boxes again?"
I see Canada as artificial too. Why is this such a hard topic for some to swallow? We were formed by the British and according what was in their best interest. We didn't form a country on Canada's terms, we didn't have a dual anglo-franco Canadian people, we took what the British made us into and have tried to make the best of it. We don't need a made up nationalism to stay together as a country. Nationalism for Canada always looks strained and forced, like people who try to claim Alexander Graham Bell as a Canadian inventor, it's just desperate. No, we don't have much to be excited or proud about, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. I am excited for Quebec and proud of Quebec, but that is more to do with culture and history than a made up flag and territorial borders or claiming inventions made by Americans as Canadian. I can't get excited for Canada and made up flags and borders implemented by a foreign colonial power. I can see why people in some of the countries you name like the US and France are "proud", but as a Canadian I can be honest with myself and agree that Canada is "artificial". Many of the English/French clashes we have stem from the fact that anglos tend to want an American-style "nation" with a culture, history, cuisine, economy, inventions, and others to be proud of (even if they deny this to their grave) while francos are fine with Canada being nothing more than an expedient political union that serves Quebec's best interests for the time being.
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Old 06-22-2015, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, QC, Canada
3,402 posts, read 4,452,621 times
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Why does it have to be one particular thing to be a country? Where is that a rule?
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Old 06-22-2015, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Montreal
359 posts, read 264,798 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
Honestly, I think your reasoning is pretty thin. Legally, where do countries become more " real " because of being mono-cultural?

Again, Quebec can not just unilaterally separate from Canada. The ROC has a huge voice is what happens.
Jambo can have this fantasy of " new directions " etc, but what the heck does that mean in a legal context??
I am 99% sure you know what Acajack means beneath the nationalist veneer. Do you not? It is plain to see the difference between Canada and other countries like the US, France, Germany, Brazil, and others. The fact that no one seems to be able to identify a anglo Canadian culture, and that the country is entirely the creation of the British empire has everything to do with it. Canada is just a government, and we shouldn't feel a need to make things up. The US is the most obvious comparison due to the similarity in cultures. The US is a "real country", Canada is not. "Real country" might not be the best term but most people get the gist. It isn't exactly the first time Canada has been called "not a real country". Even as we are today, we still have a monarch from a distant foreign power as the head of state. I would say that if this bothers anyone, they need make a time machine so they can go back in time and stop the British conquest or achieve Canadian independence long before 1982. Until that happens, Canada as it stands isn't really a nation or a country in the same sense as France, the US, Germany, and others.
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Old 06-22-2015, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Montreal
359 posts, read 264,798 times
Reputation: 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse44 View Post
Why does it have to be one particular thing to be a country? Where is that a rule?
There aren't really rules (as I am sure a budding collegiate such as yourself is aware) but a general consensus among people of the world. A colony that relatively recently was granted independence by it's master and retains a distant foreign monarch ruling over two groups of people who stay completely seperate except in matters of politics is hardly what most world citizens look at as a "real country". The fact that anglo Canadians have no unique national culture to separate them from being more than only the Americans-who-couldn't-get-real-independence is just icing on the cake.
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Old 06-22-2015, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,701 posts, read 8,775,044 times
Reputation: 7314
Quote:
Originally Posted by PBeauchamp View Post
I am 99% sure you know what Acajack means beneath the nationalist veneer. Do you not? It is plain to see the difference between Canada and other countries like the US, France, Germany, Brazil, and others. The fact that no one seems to be able to identify a anglo Canadian culture, and that the country is entirely the creation of the British empire has everything to do with it. Canada is just a government, and we shouldn't feel a need to make things up. The US is the most obvious comparison due to the similarity in cultures. The US is a "real country", Canada is not. "Real country" might not be the best term but most people get the gist. It isn't exactly the first time Canada has been called "not a real country". Even as we are today, we still have a monarch from a distant foreign power as the head of state. I would say that if this bothers anyone, they need make a time machine so they can go back in time and stop the British conquest or achieve Canadian independence long before 1982. Until that happens, Canada as it stands isn't really a nation or a country in the same sense as France, the US, Germany, and others.
No. Legally Canada IS a country. You can rationalize all you want, but legally show me where Canada is not a real country? We are part of many international organizations AS A COUNTRY. We sit in the UN AS A COUNTRY.
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Old 06-22-2015, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Montreal
579 posts, read 469,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
No. Legally Canada IS a country. You can rationalize all you want, but legally show me where Canada is not a real country? We are part of many international organizations AS A COUNTRY. We sit in the UN AS A COUNTRY.
For some people, Canada is a country only in the legal sense, and it isn't in any sense that isn't strictly legal...
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Old 06-22-2015, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,960 posts, read 27,390,495 times
Reputation: 8613
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
Honestly, I think your reasoning is pretty thin. Legally, where do countries become more " real " because of being mono-cultural?
It's not "my" reasoning. It's just what I hear from lots of people. And not always just in Quebec. Just repeating it.

As for the legality of Canada, obviously we all see it and recognize it.

That's not what we are talking about here.

If a country is strictly limited to having defined borders, a seat at the UN, and army, then of course, Canada is a real country.

I sense that what most people are talking about, though, isn't really related to that administrative stuff.

And I'd argue that if so many people think that Canada has all the boxes for nationhood checked off simply based on that administrative stuff, then you have a good explanation for why you always get annoying comments about Canada not being a real country (from PQ politicians but also from foreigners as well) and feeling more like a corporate shareholders' meeting than a bona fide "nation" in the usual sense.

Which is all well and good if that's what Canada aspires to be.

Now... that being said. There is a growing sentiment in Canada that is building on stuff that makes Canada "feel Canadian" more in the sense that the US feels American, Australia feels Australian, and so on.

But it's still in the fairly nascent stages IMO and also butts heads with a lot of people when it crosses the Ottawa River.
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Old 06-22-2015, 12:21 PM
 
18,324 posts, read 10,398,747 times
Reputation: 13388
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
No. Legally Canada IS a country. You can rationalize all you want, but legally show me where Canada is not a real country? We are part of many international organizations AS A COUNTRY. We sit in the UN AS A COUNTRY.
You're wasting your time with this. These malcontents would not be making this claim had the French thought the colony worthy and spent the money to win the battles.. Then these same boobs would be going "yep we're a REAL country 'cuase after all, we won the wars and we're FRENCH!"

History.. I see certain parallels with the history of Switzerland to being designated "not a country" and being a make believe entity using the proposed faux logic. With four languages, and a widely accepted fifth, with at least three distinct cultures within it's borders and quite happily ALL of them refer to themselves as SWISS. No one constantly whining over considering themselves the redheaded step-child given short shrift by another of their cultures. Even the more dominant culture is accepted and respected thusly.

They arrived at their current juncture in a process "further refined" in the 1800's by agreement to create a STRONGER federal constitution, while at the same time allowing the various cantons self rule.

Imagine that! Would that we were as intelligent.
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