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Old 06-22-2015, 12:45 PM
 
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I tend to agree with Acajack in that the notion of nation-state is really becoming quite superficial in this day and age. They used to have a specific purpose in terms of unifying diverse groups and centralizing power and resources, especially in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the golden age of nation-building.

In this day and age when there are no major wars between countries, when formerly distant cultures and societies are becoming increasingly interconnected via economic globalization and the spread of globally-accepted universal values, it just seems rather quaint when certain people or groups insist on forming or "protecting" national identities within well-defined physical, ethnic, or cultural boundaries.

The only times when I encounter this kind of rhetoric is from certain political figures or parties who find it expedient to use "patriotism" or ethnic/cultural nationalism in order to advance their own political agendas (Putin's Russia, China under the current Xi administration, being prime modern day examples). The goal of these kinds of rhetoric is always to invoke a certain degree of cultural and/or ethnic exceptionalism among your people, and that this "exceptionalism" can only be protected if so and so is elected into office.
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Old 06-22-2015, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,947 posts, read 27,354,178 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post

The Swiss carry one passport.

.
Except that the passports are delivered by the cantons.

You can't become a Swiss citizen in the canton of Geneva if you speak only German and not French, for example.

In theory if you live in a German canton you can freely move to Geneva without knowing French but you would still have your Swiss citizenship based in the German canton until such time as you obtained citizenship from Geneva under their rules.

And until that time there would be a bunch of things you couldn't do in Geneva, including running for office, voting in local and cantonal elections, etc.

You'd be like a "half-citizen" there.
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Old 06-22-2015, 12:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I happen to think that the whole Supreme Court reference and Clarity Act is more of a reassurance pacifier or placebo for Anglo-Canada than anything that would carry signficant weight in a real-life situation. (Or at least, certainly not carry enough weight to prevent separation from happening if we got to that point.)

If you look at history, independence isn't really something you ask permission for, or follow a defined process in order to obtain.

It's more like a "damn the torpedoes" kind of thing.

I don't hope we ever get to that point, but if we do that's how I would expect things to go.

Sorry if that makes people unhappy.
Unhappy is the least of it A/J, as I think you're probably 'on spot" with that. My previous post offers my opinion of the outcome.
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Old 06-22-2015, 12:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Except that the passports are delivered by the cantons.

You can't become a Swiss citizen in the canton of Geneva if you speak only German and not French, for example.

In theory if you live in a German canton you can freely move to Geneva without knowing French but you would still have your Swiss citizenship based in the German canton until such time as you obtained citizenship from Geneva under their rules.

And until that time there would be a bunch of things you couldn't do in Geneva, including running for office, voting in local and cantonal elections, etc.

You'd be like a "half-citizen" there.
My reading shows that is universally applied throughout the cantons to and fro though, am I correct?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_nationality_law

Last edited by BruSan; 06-22-2015 at 01:03 PM..
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Old 06-22-2015, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,947 posts, read 27,354,178 times
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Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Unhappy is the least of it A/J, as I think you're probably 'on spot" with that. My previous post offers my opinion of the outcome.
These things are by their very nature quite messy. I don't think that a Quebec-Canada split would be horrifically messy, but still messy enough that we'd be wise to avoid it if we can IMO.

As for the SCC and Clarity Act, they're almost like a foolproof plan for herding cats or something...
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Old 06-22-2015, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
My reading shows that is universally applied throughout the cantons to and fro though, am I correct?
What do you mean?
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Old 06-22-2015, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,947 posts, read 27,354,178 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
I tend to agree with Acajack in that the notion of nation-state is really becoming quite superficial in this day and age. They used to have a specific purpose in terms of unifying diverse groups and centralizing power and resources, especially in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the golden age of nation-building.

In this day and age when there are no major wars between countries, when formerly distant cultures and societies are becoming increasingly interconnected via economic globalization and the spread of globally-accepted universal values, it just seems rather quaint when certain people or groups insist on forming or "protecting" national identities within well-defined physical, ethnic, or cultural boundaries.

The only times when I encounter this kind of rhetoric is from certain political figures or parties who find it expedient to use "patriotism" or ethnic/cultural nationalism in order to advance their own political agendas (Putin's Russia, China under the current Xi administration, being prime modern day examples). The goal of these kinds of rhetoric is always to invoke a certain degree of cultural and/or ethnic exceptionalism among your people, and that this "exceptionalism" can only be protected if so and so is elected into office.
Even though it has worked well for most of us here (I assume), I don't think we should be naive to the point of thinking that the current political arrangement of the northern half (or so) of North America is a have-all end-all and nec plus ultra to the point where something else mightn't be better.

Just looking at history shows very clearly that the borders we have at the moment won't likely be the same in a few centuries. Maybe sooner than that.

I mean, the "international system" since the end of WW2 has led to far more stable borders and countries than what was seen prior to that time, but there is still quite a bit of movement and no sign that this will abate. It's just not a free-for-all like it once was.
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Old 06-22-2015, 01:06 PM
 
18,274 posts, read 10,377,134 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
What do you mean?
That whatever restrictions one canton puts on someone moving into their canton are applied equally and in exact like manner to someone moving from that canton to another?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_nationality_law
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Old 06-22-2015, 01:08 PM
 
18,274 posts, read 10,377,134 times
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
These things are by their very nature quite messy. I don't think that a Quebec-Canada split would be horrifically messy, but still messy enough that we'd be wise to avoid it if we can IMO.

As for the SCC and Clarity Act, they're almost like a foolproof plan for herding cats or something...
I agree that someone can state for clarity that for purposes of lawn watering only; henceforth water will run uphill, but.........
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Old 06-22-2015, 01:09 PM
 
2,561 posts, read 2,180,112 times
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Even though it has worked well for most of us here (I assume), I don't think we should be naive to the point of thinking that the current political arrangement of the northern half (or so) of North America is a have-all end-all and nec plus ultra to the point where something else mightn't be better.

Just looking at history shows very clearly that the borders we have at the moment won't likely be the same in a few centuries. Maybe sooner than that.

I mean, the "international system" since the end of WW2 has led to far more stable borders and countries than what was seen prior to that time, but there is still quite a bit of movement and no sign that this will abate. It's just not a free-for-all like it once was.
Oh but when push comes to shove, I'm sure it is still a "free for all" land-grab scenario. Russia occupying Crimean and eastern Ukraine, China building artificial islands in 90% of South China Sea, and the future free-for-all buffet known as Arctic circle when it becomes open to navigation by 2050.

Of course it still is, and will always be a fluid situation. But I think it can easily get very very messy when the time comes, because a few countries/political leaders will resort to the old fashioned way.

Personally, I just hope that our political leaders can move beyond this kind of petty us-vs-them mentality, and instead focus on creating a stable and peaceful environment for the happiness of our peoples.
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