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View Poll Results: Urban Cohesion/contiguous walkable expanse: Montreal vs Toronto
Montreal 11 64.71%
Toronto 6 35.29%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-23-2015, 07:33 AM
 
Location: East Coast
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What about areas outside of "Old Toronto"? Old Toronto is, I believe, smaller than the urban core of Montreal. Which I think gets back to the OP's point about "urban cohesion" over a greater area.

Agree that downtown Toronto is in a different league compared to downtown Montreal. I always think of Montreal as being a big, bustling city, but after spending a few days in Toronto and coming back home, it sure felt pretty tiny for a couple of days.
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Old 07-23-2015, 11:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ARrocket View Post
What about areas outside of "Old Toronto"? Old Toronto is, I believe, smaller than the urban core of Montreal. Which I think gets back to the OP's point about "urban cohesion" over a greater area.
Outside old Toronto, it is called "the suburbs". People sleep there. That's all.
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Old 07-23-2015, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Toronto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARrocket View Post
What about areas outside of "Old Toronto"? Old Toronto is, I believe, smaller than the urban core of Montreal. Which I think gets back to the OP's point about "urban cohesion" over a greater area.

Agree that downtown Toronto is in a different league compared to downtown Montreal. I always think of Montreal as being a big, bustling city, but after spending a few days in Toronto and coming back home, it sure felt pretty tiny for a couple of days.
Using 2011 stats (dated but we'll have to wait for next years update)

Old Toronto is 736K people in 97 sq km's

Toronto city is 2.6 million in 630 sq km's

Montreal city is 1.6 million in 430 sq kms

So each city has about the same density - but you have to account for the fact that Toronto city is more spread out and larger so if you were to use the same area as Montreal city (430 sq kms) starting from the DT core outwards, the population would most likely be greater than 1.6 million because people are usually more concentrated towards the core.

Montreal city isn't all 'urban core' - either! It has its share of suburbia make no mistake about that so I don't really think the 'urban' core footprint - whatever that is really is larger than Old Toronto. I'd love to see someone put 736K people in any 97 sq km's of Montreal including its most dense parts including Ville-Marie and Côte-des-Neiges–Notre-Dame-de-Grâce - probably won't happen but open to being proven wrong!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Toronto
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal

Agreed about the DT areas of both cities and I love DT Montreal don't get me wrong - its oozes character, is a very busy DT core with lots of people from the metro/visitors (Like DT Toronto) who come in and add to how bustling it is - but Bballkinet needed some data and visual perspective with respect to which one of the two is more intense - Toronto's DT is simply the larger and more populous DT core and when it comes down to it is the larger city and urban area and still very much debateable that Montreal even has the same urban cohesion in its most urban parts as Old Toronto. I think in that regard in comes down to a preference of form over it being more cohesive from an urban perspective (which is pretty subjective stuff anyway).

Last edited by fusion2; 07-23-2015 at 05:02 PM..
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Old 07-23-2015, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Toronto
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Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Outside old Toronto, it is called "the suburbs". People sleep there. That's all.
Well certainly Old Toronto is the most dense and interesting part of Toronto - no doubt.. With that said speak for yourself about sleeping - there are certainly some urban arterials outside Old Toronto - not like in Old T.Dot but Yonge going through NYCC isn't too bad and Lakeshore in South Etob, Lakeshore in Mississauga - Pt Credit and Streetsville have some good urban stretches. There's more but yeah - they all lose against Old Toronto no doubt but don't throw the baby out with the Bath water just because you're one of those Toronto doesn't exist outside Old Toronto people lol...
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Old 07-23-2015, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Toronto
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So I did some homework regarding comparing population and density of the boroughs in Montreal that surround the DT Core in Ville-Marie. The results are striking in that the population of Old Toronto and these boroughs are practically the same over the same area with a slight edge to Old Toronto, but not by much!! I used the link below for those that want to check my numbers and selection of boroughs most immediately surrounding Ville-Marie but lets start with this:

Old Toronto as of 2011 was 736K people in 97 sq km's

and now Montreal - and I must add the way Montreal breaks up its borough's into manageable chunks is really handy dandy - I'm still looking for a similar breakdown in Toronto and can't find such granularity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boroughs_of_Montreal

Ville-Marie (DT Montreal is within this area) - 84K people in 17 sq km's
Le Sud-Ouest 72K people in 16 sq km's
Le Plateau Mont-Royal 100K people in 8 sq km's
Outremont 24K people in 4 sq km's
Côte-des-Neiges 165K people in 21 sq km's
Villeray 142K people in 17 sq km's
Rosemount 134K people in 16 sq km's

This adds up to 721K people in 99sq Km's - strikingly similar to Old Toronto in population with a very slight edge to Old Toronto..

What I found interesting was Côte-des-Neiges the most populous borough of Montreal has an impressive 165K people in only 21 sq km's.... DT Toronto just peaks over 200K in 17 sq km's so it puts some perspective on the density of some of Montreal's boroughs where the most dense concentration of residents in Toronto is in its DT area while in Montreal its some borough's away from its DT core!

As for urban cohesion - well its the same argument I used before - it all depends on preference but in terms of density/population in and around the DT cores of both Toronto and Montreal - these cities have remarkably similar density/population profiles.. Montreal DT and surrounding boroughs would achieve this with those solid contiguous 3-5 story row-houses while Old Toronto achieves it with a combination of lower to mid to highrise density.

I suspect given the overall size advantage as a contiguous urbanized area 7 million (GTA/Hamilton) vs 4.2 million (Greater Montreal) coupled with stronger population growth, that Old Toronto will continue to densify at a greater clip than Montreal's core boroughs but Toronto will never achieve this with brick Rowhouses obviously lol - it'll be ever growing mid to high rise modern era infil. Its a tale of growth in different era's.....

Last edited by fusion2; 07-23-2015 at 06:46 PM..
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Old 07-24-2015, 12:08 AM
 
Location: BC Canada
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I would give the edge to Toronto as I think it has a larger downtown/inner city contiguous core area. Montreal's core is smaller and although extremely walkable, the Jacque Cartier freeway, being an island and having Mont Royal tends to break it up a little.
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Old 07-24-2015, 07:57 AM
 
Location: East Coast
678 posts, read 691,654 times
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That's a great post fusion2, thanks for that! My only gripe is the exclusion of Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, which I think is a very core neighborhood. Unfortunately, I can't find stats for just that neighborhood, but rather, for the entire borough:

Mercier-Hochelaga-Maisonneuve: 131k people in 25 sq km.

Which makes the comparison to Toronto difficult, since now you're looking at considerably more square km. Furthermore, the Mercier sections of the borough are lower density (I believe) and more suburban.

I found a source that says the population of just Hochelaga-Maisonneuve was 45k in 2012, but I'm not sure about the area of the neighborhood.

Additionally, there is Verdun: 66k people in 8 sq km.

At any rate, the two are very similar! But I do believe that while areas outside of those you listed may not be the "urban core," there are still many continuously urban areas remaining in Montreal (stemming out from the core neighborhoods), such as parts of Montreal-Nord and Anhustic-Cartierville.
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Old 07-24-2015, 09:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Well certainly Old Toronto is the most dense and interesting part of Toronto - no doubt.. With that said speak for yourself about sleeping - there are certainly some urban arterials outside Old Toronto - not like in Old T.Dot but Yonge going through NYCC isn't too bad and Lakeshore in South Etob, Lakeshore in Mississauga - Pt Credit and Streetsville have some good urban stretches. There's more but yeah - they all lose against Old Toronto no doubt but don't throw the baby out with the Bath water just because you're one of those Toronto doesn't exist outside Old Toronto people lol...
Southern Etobicoke and a small part of Mississauga are indeed not that bad, but they are nevertheless small town-ish urban. As to NYCC, yes, a few highrises and indoor malls - I would never call that an urban centre. Highrise condos/office buildings and malls don't make a city. It is the restaurants, the wandering pedestrians, the random café shops, bookstores, psychic reading businesses, buskers that make a city. NYCC feels very boring and sterile to me. There is no charm whatsoever. It is always North York, instead of Toronto to me.
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Old 07-24-2015, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Toronto
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Originally Posted by ARrocket View Post
That's a great post fusion2, thanks for that! My only gripe is the exclusion of Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, which I think is a very core neighborhood. Unfortunately, I can't find stats for just that neighborhood, but rather, for the entire borough:

Mercier-Hochelaga-Maisonneuve: 131k people in 25 sq km.

Which makes the comparison to Toronto difficult, since now you're looking at considerably more square km. Furthermore, the Mercier sections of the borough are lower density (I believe) and more suburban.

I found a source that says the population of just Hochelaga-Maisonneuve was 45k in 2012, but I'm not sure about the area of the neighborhood.

Additionally, there is Verdun: 66k people in 8 sq km.

At any rate, the two are very similar! But I do believe that while areas outside of those you listed may not be the "urban core," there are still many continuously urban areas remaining in Montreal (stemming out from the core neighborhoods), such as parts of Montreal-Nord and Anhustic-Cartierville.
Thanks ARrocket

I had to exclude some boroughs to equal Old Toronto in terms of size but took the most dense Montreal boroughs that are the most contiguous with Ville-Marie to make the comparison on as even a footing as possible.. Supplementing Verdun/Hochelega would have actually brought the population of the representative part of Montreal down over 97km sq which is Old Toronto size. Also, while Old Toronto may be more dense and urban than other parts of T.O - urbanity doesn't just end at the borders of Old Toronto so take that into account as well.. Also, while not as urban as Old Toronto - the boroughs in Toronto and than contiguous areas that are connected to Toronto city proper are more dense than in Greater Montreal so this is where Toronto's overall metro size starts to kick into gear.

Of course this is just core boroughs - Toronto spreads out much further than Montreal and its Suburban areas are much more dense than Greater Montreal.

One last thing about Old Toronto - i'm basing stats off of 2011 which is going on 5 years now.. I'd say pretty confidently the population of Old Toronto is approaching 800K people so they'll be more homework to do next year when stats Canada releases 2016 census.

Last edited by fusion2; 07-24-2015 at 04:11 PM..
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Old 07-24-2015, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Toronto
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Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Southern Etobicoke and a small part of Mississauga are indeed not that bad, but they are nevertheless small town-ish urban. As to NYCC, yes, a few highrises and indoor malls - I would never call that an urban centre. Highrise condos/office buildings and malls don't make a city. It is the restaurants, the wandering pedestrians, the random café shops, bookstores, psychic reading businesses, buskers that make a city. NYCC feels very boring and sterile to me. There is no charm whatsoever. It is always North York, instead of Toronto to me.
Actually if you walk up Yonge in NYCC there are quite a few restaurants/wondering pedestrians (lotsa Koreans), café shops etc so I don't think its completely sterile.. Wandering buskers - meh lol i'm sure a lot of boroughs far away from core areas of a metro don't have too many 'wandering' buskers...

Southern Etob along lakeshore between Evans and Islington is actually very decent in terms of urbanity imo. Lots of pubs/bars/resto's'cafe's etc.. There's even Streetcars. Port Credit is also decently urban along Lakeshore. Don't forget either that these areas are quite the distance from DT Toronto so areas of Montreal with such a distance may not be models of urbanity either.... Have you driven along Boulevard Decarie in Montreal? It is closer to Ville Marie than South Etob is to DT Toronto and I wouldn't call it the picture of urbanity ether...
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