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Old 07-13-2015, 09:21 AM
 
1,218 posts, read 2,121,201 times
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I think the majority of modern society would not have a problem with gays serving in the military in combat roles. I certainly don't. I have nothing against the military either. I respect it as an institution as it is necessary for a country to maintain one but I admit that I am quite skeptical of many government-directed military actions which reek more of geopolitical objectives as opposed to moral ones. I think the conflict that comes into play here is that if you have a group of young, maschismo (straight) men who are less accepting of gays or women or Muslims or Asians or whoever to begin with. If they collectively don't like a certain group (in this case gays), then they can ostracize them, make their life a living hell, and hurt team dynamics. I'm not pretending to have a good grasp of the inner workings of the military but this situation probably does happen, hopefully more in the past than the present. I've met some military people who are very intelligent and open-minded and some who are the opposite. Your going to get a full gambit of people here. It's unfortunate but like everything else, I think time will continue to make this issue go away as we all move towards greater acceptance of differences. Setting the tone from top of the chain that discrimination is not acceptable is a step in the right direction.
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Old 07-13-2015, 03:42 PM
 
18,359 posts, read 10,426,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbaker83 View Post
I'm sure ISIS will have a field day with it though....


ISIS Corporal Mohamed: High Commander Ayab, a contingent of highly trained American soldiers has landed near the outskirts of Al-Arabiya! How can we possibly resist their ferocious killing capacity? We must man our defences and fight to the Death!

ISIS High Commander Ayab: Fool! Those are not American soldiers, but only Canadian soldiers! We have nothing to fear! Haven't you heard that Canadian soldiers are openly gay!

ISIS Corporal Mohamed: Ah! What a relief High Commander Ayab! How foolish was I to regard the Canadian fighting man with such seriousness!
And they will not be the first to misjudge capabilities of the Canadian military. I'd be willing to bet ISIS itself has gays within it's midst. Anyone thinking there have not been gays in the front lines throughout the history of warfare is thoroughly disconnected from reality.

There are some interesting happenstances in Canada's "fighting" history that I don't believe would have changed one iota had the gays of the day been out in the 'open'.

Remembrance Day: 10 momentous battles from Canada's military history - The Globe and Mail

That Kap Yong battle in Korea is little known for it's significance in being the only reason the 38th parallel is the demarkation between a North and South Korea. The way the chicoms had the south Koreans and 'green' American troops on the run in a full out rout , they would have easily taken Seoul and continued. The suite for peace resulted in the stalemate created from that battle.

Battle of Kapyong - The Canadian Encyclopedia

You probably know nothing of these because John Wayne or Clint Eastwood haven't made movies about them.

I'd be willing to bet the farm there were gays present during every one of them.
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Old 07-13-2015, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,176,078 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoisite View Post
Well, yeah, I understand that and I agree you shouldn't have to lie and hide, but by what acceptable methods or manners is openess declared? How should it be openly established with everyone else whether or not a person is gay and is not hiding or lying about it? In the military (or any other similar job that has to do with warfare) is there some reason why it would be necessary or be anyone's business for ANY person to know what ANY OTHER person's sexual orientation is? I don't care and frankly I don't want to know what anyone else's sexual orientation is and I don't like to see people publically acting out whatever their orientation is. I'm thinking there's probably a lot of other people who don't give a darn and don't want to know what other people's orientation is either.

.
When people have been ejected from the military simply because they are gay than obviously the military didn't mind its business. That is the whole point about serving openly - its about not being afraid of being kicked out if they know you're gay.. Its not about ramming sexual orientation down someone's throat either gay or straight. If straights were tossed out the military simply because they were straight they would want to serve 'openly' as well..

Otherwise I don't know what you mean about manners or acceptable methods. This has nothing to do with openly serving either straight or gay.. Its keeping the standard for gays and straights on a level playing field in terms of their orientation. I agree however that one's sexual orientation is irrelevant to doing the job. With that said - if orientation is determined because a service member mentions a gay spouse to a coworker as a straight service member will speak of their spouse or children in conversation, or talk about said spouse or gets same sex spousal benefits than surely they shouldn't be kicked out..
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Old 07-13-2015, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Montreal
381 posts, read 267,166 times
Reputation: 291
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
And they will not be the first to misjudge capabilities of the Canadian military. I'd be willing to bet ISIS itself has gays within it's midst. Anyone thinking there have not been gays in the front lines throughout the history of warfare is thoroughly disconnected from reality. There are some interesting happenstances in Canada's "fighting" history that I don't believe would have changed one iota had the gays of the day been out in the 'open'. Remembrance Day: 10 momentous battles from Canada's military history - The Globe and Mail That Kap Yong battle in Korea is little known for it's significance in being the only reason the 38th parallel is the demarkation between a North and South Korea. The way the chicoms had the south Koreans and 'green' American troops on the run in a full out rout , they would have easily taken Seoul and continued. The suite for peace resulted in the stalemate created from that battle. Battle of Kapyong - The Canadian Encyclopedia You probably know nothing of these because John Wayne or Clint Eastwood haven't made movies about them. I'd be willing to bet the farm there were gays present during every one of them.
Why are you being so defensive? You are really puffing up your chest. These are the kind of ultra-defensive acts that make people think you guys have an inferiority complex.

We were just part of the British military back then. Anyways, the battle was mostly Australians and some Canadians and New Zealanders fighting in the 27th British Brigade and doing so under British command and with American air power. Seeing how these our countries besides the US weren't even independent, it sounds a bit disingenious to point to this skirmish as a symbol of Canadian military prowess. Botticelli got it right, Canada hasn't ever done anything of military significance other than being conquered by the Americans/British in 1760 (where English Canada comes from), providing the British with Canon fodder at Paschendaele, and being humiliated and destroyed at the raid on Dieppe in 1942 (The only "all-Canadian" battle I can think of). I don't know why we have to pretend otherwise. Why do some need us so desperately to be a military power? Any Canadian victories that have ever been won were really British victories, and won with a small Canadian contribution helping out the US, UK or some other country who was doing the major lifting.

Were there gays there? probably. Were there people OPENLY serving as gays? No, not a chance.
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Old 07-13-2015, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,176,078 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
I have no idea what people think will happen as a result of allowing people to serve openly in the military. It is like basic training will turn into a full on Pride parade as a result. There is a certain level of conduct that is required for you to serve, straight or gay. Allowing someone to comfortably speak openly about their preference does not alter that in any way.

Plus I have some bass ass friends who are gay and would want them backing me up over many of my straight friends if I ever got into a sticky situation. Its a shame I even have to make that statement, because it should be assumed.
Agreed - and i'm not advocating any type of special treatment, its simply the same standard applied to straights and gays. I have no idea where confusion is entering the fray in terms of acceptable methods or 'manners' with respect to openness. Its almost like the assumption is made that the term open implies some sort of deviant behaviour just because its connected to gays.. I think I know why Ed and its the same nonsense stereotyping that goes on with so many groups that fall victim to it.. At the root it comes from the same dark judgemental and ignorant place!

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnathanc View Post
I think the majority of modern society would not have a problem with gays serving in the military in combat roles. I certainly don't. I have nothing against the military either. I respect it as an institution as it is necessary for a country to maintain one but I admit that I am quite skeptical of many government-directed military actions which reek more of geopolitical objectives as opposed to moral ones. I think the conflict that comes into play here is that if you have a group of young, maschismo (straight) men who are less accepting of gays or women or Muslims or Asians or whoever to begin with. If they collectively don't like a certain group (in this case gays), then they can ostracize them, make their life a living hell, and hurt team dynamics. I'm not pretending to have a good grasp of the inner workings of the military but this situation probably does happen, hopefully more in the past than the present. I've met some military people who are very intelligent and open-minded and some who are the opposite. Your going to get a full gambit of people here. It's unfortunate but like everything else, I think time will continue to make this issue go away as we all move towards greater acceptance of differences. Setting the tone from top of the chain that discrimination is not acceptable is a step in the right direction.
I think you summed it up excellently johnathanc and not just as it applies to gays but any group.. This is why I think this matter is far bigger than just gays.. It is transferable to any group that would fall victim!
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Old 07-13-2015, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Montreal
381 posts, read 267,166 times
Reputation: 291
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieppe_Raid

The most important mostly-Canadian battle of all time. The British let the Canadian "colonials" have a shot at running things and the result was a complete disaster. The British lost a lot of trust in Canadian abilities, and the Germans formed a very low opinion of us as being British "cannon fodder" who carried out British suicide missions in place of actual Englishmen/Scotsmen.

And so what? Does this matter today? Do we need to be ashamed about a defeat of the British Empire? We don't need military prowess since the Americans do all the dirty work for us. It's working out great for us.
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Old 07-13-2015, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Montreal
381 posts, read 267,166 times
Reputation: 291
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Agreed - and i'm not advocating any type of special treatment, its simply the same standard applied to straights or gays. I have no idea where confusion is entering the fray in terms of acceptable methods or 'manners' with respect to openness. Its almost like the assumption is made that the term open implies some sort of deviance
You are right, the whole thing is stupid. Who cares if a soldier is gay? I know I don't. What a small problem to be concerned over.
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Old 07-13-2015, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,176,078 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
And they will not be the first to misjudge capabilities of the Canadian military. I'd be willing to bet ISIS itself has gays within it's midst. Anyone thinking there have not been gays in the front lines throughout the history of warfare is thoroughly disconnected from reality.

There are some interesting happenstances in Canada's "fighting" history that I don't believe would have changed one iota had the gays of the day been out in the 'open'.

Remembrance Day: 10 momentous battles from Canada's military history - The Globe and Mail

That Kap Yong battle in Korea is little known for it's significance in being the only reason the 38th parallel is the demarkation between a North and South Korea. The way the chicoms had the south Koreans and 'green' American troops on the run in a full out rout , they would have easily taken Seoul and continued. The suite for peace resulted in the stalemate created from that battle.

Battle of Kapyong - The Canadian Encyclopedia

You probably know nothing of these because John Wayne or Clint Eastwood haven't made movies about them.

I'd be willing to bet the farm there were gays present during every one of them.
Many have underestimated an opponent based on ignorance and ended up paying the price for such foolishness... Oh well - people learn the hard way
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Old 07-13-2015, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,176,078 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by PBeauchamp View Post
You are right, the whole thing is stupid. Who cares if a soldier is gay? I know I don't. What a small problem to be concerned over.
Its not even a problem unless a person makes it one.. If I was a soldier, I wouldn't care if someone is straight.. Just like at work, I don't use my fellow coworkers' heterosexuality against them.. We all have a choice to make about how we deal with members of the team. If I can't accept and respect someone because they are different from what I am than big trouble awaits and the problem lies with me not with others. An optimally functioning team sets aside irrelevant differences and focusses on the task at hand. I'm sure there are a plethora of tasks at hand to be concerned about in the military instead of worrying about who John kisses on his off time.
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Old 07-13-2015, 04:32 PM
 
Location: Quebec
30 posts, read 26,020 times
Reputation: 62
Of course openly gay people should be able serve. It's already a well-known fact that the Canadian military is already a complete and utter joke as it stands. How much worse could it get?

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