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Old 08-09-2015, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,691 posts, read 8,756,192 times
Reputation: 7309

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
That goes for issues involving the gay community as well. Canada is far more likely to have a top down approach to social change. A few officials at the top decide gays should marry and thus the laws change. In America change is much more likely to come about as a result of social activism from the common citizens. In the realm of gay marriage, many states legalized it through a popular vote rather than by a vote of a few state or federal officials.

This goes for marijuana too, where despite the opposition of the federal government the voters of Colorado, Washington, Oregon, Washington D.C. and Alaska made true legalization of marijuana possible. In Canada the legalization of weed is up to a few officials, and the moment they are dead set against it.
Yes, but that was my point to Pbeachamp. The people of the US are not more liberal than Canadians because they have legalized it in a few states. The process is different.

It still in not legal federally though in the US. That will probably be the same long, money wasting, insane struggle that equal marriage had to go through.

 
Old 08-09-2015, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Montreal
359 posts, read 264,347 times
Reputation: 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
The Tower of Babel is nothing to be jealous about. These issues were settled on the Plains of Abraham. The British and then English Canada was exceedingly generous in permitting French a role. The U.S. forced Louisiana to declare English the official state language in granting it admission as a state in 1812.

Why the constant pot-stirring?
Actually the U.S acted the exact same way towards Louisiana as the British/English Canadians did towards Quebec. English was an official language of Quebec until relatively recently, and French was spoken in large numbers everywhere from Manitoba to the Maritimes, and in those areas starting as the majority European language. The difference between Louisiana and Canada is that in Louisiana the French were always rivaled by Spanish speakers and Africans and the entire pre-U.S. population was small and geographically contained, but in Canada (Quebec) the numbers of French speakers were a lot bigger and spread out, making them harder to assimilate.
 
Old 08-09-2015, 10:01 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,263,797 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
I'm no expert and I don't want to get in a tit for tat kind of argument since I believe discrimination is wrong and can never be justified.

But I'm still having a trouble believing that Blacks coming to Canada using the " underground railway " thought they were coming to a place that was exactly as the place they left.

Purely from this standpoint alone.

Canada has had only one Lynching in its history. - Democratic Underground
The point is that what they found in Canada wasn't any better than what they found in America, and in most cases was less preferable, hence the exodus of most of the tiny black population of Canada to the United States post-1865. Escaped slaves expected Canada to be preferable to America for blacks, but were sorely disappointed. The early abolition of slavery by the British Empire gave them the impression that they were for equality between the races, but in reality the abolition of slavery in Canada hardly meant that the population of British territories wanted to live anywhere near blacks. Whites were as likely, perhaps more likely, to support abolition of black slavery to keep an area all-white and free of blacks as they were to do it out of any moral belief in equality.

You are engaging the classic Canadian "sweep it under the carpet" tactic when you point out that "Canada has only had one lynching in it's history". Yes, Canada with a black population that made up less than a fraction of one percent of the population is going to have far less lynching than somewhere like America where blacks made up anywhere from 10-20% in a given decade and made up a strong majority of the population in states like South Carolina and Mississippi. Take this excerpt from an academic journal addressing the subject:

"Many African-American immigrants originally looked to Canada as a ref-uge from the discrimination they faced in the United States. Samuel Ring-gold Ward, black leader and proud British gentleman, suggested that there is no country in the world so much hated by slaveholders, as Canada; nor is there any country so much beloved and sought for, by the slaves ... [because] it is a free country.î14 According to the North American Convention of Col-ored Freedmen held September 10, 1851, [T]he British government was the most favourable in the civilized world to the people of colour and was thereby entitled to the entire confidence of the Convention. In her plea to American fugitive slaves to immigrate to Canada West, the young Mary Ann Shadd praised the British Empire and asserted, [T]here is no legal discrimi-nation whatever affecting coloured immigrants in Canada, nor from any cause whatever are their privileges sought to be abridged. By mid-century, between 20,000 and 40,000 black people had settled among British and French Canadian colonists, primarily in the rural areas of the southwestern and Niagara peninsulas of Canada West. Significant con-centrations of African Canadians lived in municipalities along the Detroit River and Lake Erie shores such as Amherstburg, Fort Malden, Sandwich, Anderdon, Maidstone, Mersea, Gosfield Colchester, Harrow, and New Canaan from the early nineteenth century. The southwestern shore of Lake Ontario, including the Niagara region, St. Catharines, and Hamilton, was another important area of settlement for black immigrants. Large numbers of African Canadians had also settled further inland in towns such as London and Brantford, in and around Chatham, and as far north as Oro, on the northern shore of Lake Simcoe.

By 1861 an estimated 40 per cent of Canada West black population had been born in the province,18 and, like other Canadians, many African Canadians believed strongly in the egalitarian potential of Brit-ish law. They thus fought for their rights to equal participation in British-Cana-dian institutions. The Committee for the Colored People of Windsor asserted in 1859 that, as Her Majesty's subjects, we desire to share the common blessings of a Free Government in the education of our rising generation ...according to the established Laws of the country of our adoption and choice. Despite legal prohibition against discrimination based on religion, race, or language, however, many white Canadians opposed the settlement of black people in or near their communities and refused them entry into public schools. Edwin Larwill, school commissioner in Raleigh Township, editor of the Chatham Journal and local politician, led a racist movement in Chatham opposing school aid for African Canadians in 1841. In 1848 his anti-black res-olution was supported by the Western District Council, which represented the counties of Essex, Kent, and Lambton, the most important areas of black set-tlement in Canada West.

A year later Larwill led opposition in and around Chatham to the planned Elgin settlement southwest of the town in Raleigh. He argued, the Negro is a distinct species of the human family ... far inferior to the European.... Amalgamation is as disgusting to the eye, as it is immoral in its tendencies and all good men will discountenance it. Walter McCrae, a citizen of Chatham, was present at this meeting. He asserted that the people of the town abhorred slavery and that every mem-ber of the human family is entitled to certain rights and privileges, and nowhere on earth, are they better secured, enjoyed, or more highly valued, than in Canada. At the same time, he argued that the presence of the Negro among [whites] is an annoyance and amalgamation, its necessary and hid-eous attendant, is an evil which requires to be checked ... [We do not want a] horde of ignorant slaves in the township of Raleigh. According to George Duck, chair of the board of school trustees for Chatham, school segregation was supported by the most respectable on the board, whose moderation ...and reasonable view of the question is gratefully acknowledged.

Many Chatham citizens were able to maintain a claim to egalitarian values in the face of their racist practices because black people were presented as morally inferior and thus not subject to the same laws as white people. Across Canada West, white Canadians articulated fears that black children would prove to be a bad moral influence upon their own children if both were allowed to attend the same schools. Giving his opinion on the reasons behind the introduction of the law allowing segregated schools, Chief Justice Beverly Robinson suggested in 1854 that white parents felt an apprehension that the children of the coloured people, many of whom have but lately escaped from a state of slavery may be, in respect to morals and habits, unfortunately worse trained than the white children are in general, and that their children might suffer from the effects of bad example. White people expressed fears that African barbarism might triumph over Anglo-Saxon civilization if black children were allowed to attend schools with white children. In a similar fashion, white citizens of London expressed their concern in 1861 that blacks were rude in speech, uncouth in manners and address and untidy in attire. It was feared that they could have a negative influence upon other children, especially adolescent white girls, if they were to be admitted into the senior classes at Londonís Central School."


Kristin, McLaren. "Despite Legal Prohibition against Discrimination Based on Religion, Race, or Language, However, Many White Canadians Opposed the Settlement of Black People in or near Their Communities and Refused Them Entry into Public Schools. Edwin Larwill, School C." Histoire Sociale 37.73 (2004): 31-33. Print.

Unfortunately the belief that Canada has been less racist than the United States, or that Canada has some moral ground over white Americans when it comes to racism has garnered a virtually religious adherence in Canada, and most specifically, English Canada. It makes even the discussion of these topics really tiresome, as I prefer to take the word of employed Canadian historians over "sources" such as the post of a Che Guevera-avatar user on the democraticunderground.com internet forum.

Last edited by hobbesdj; 08-09-2015 at 10:18 PM..
 
Old 08-09-2015, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,141,644 times
Reputation: 3738
Hobbes,

Have you had any recent experience either travelling or getting to know in the flesh White English Canadians? Lets put history aside here (I agree with you btw - there's not a point either comparing the black experience in the U.S vs Canada or trying to look at how people viewed black people over 150 years ago in either country - things were appaling in either case)..

Lets also put aside this sweeping things under the rug notion.. Perhaps you're right but maybe you're wrong... So I ask you, how many English Canadians do you know and how long have you actually spent living with us in recent times? Not just by what impression you get on an online forum or perhaps even what you see in the media.

I also think we need to start asking the right questions in these discussions.. How many black people do you connect with in daily life.. Would you hire a black person if they had equal or greater qualification than a white or Asian candidate. Do you judge or fear a black person simply because they are black. Do you attach a stereotype to black youth that they get high all the time and are involved in crime point blank - just because they are black. How many friends/lovers have you had that are black and how much do they mean to you.. Do you support your white child going to school with kids from cultures across the globe including blacks from cultures the world over and are you ok with your kids developing meaningful friendships with these kids without fear - by extension do you support more racial/ethnic integration or less.. I mean these are real questions and real discussions here about real life in our nation in 2015.. Not something in a history book or text book life where we can all pick out stuff to stick it to the other.. I'm talking about real life here and real human interactions.

Last edited by fusion2; 08-09-2015 at 11:06 PM..
 
Old 08-09-2015, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Montreal
359 posts, read 264,347 times
Reputation: 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
The point is that what they found in Canada wasn't any better than what they found in America, and in most cases was less preferable, hence the exodus of most of the tiny black population of Canada to the United States post-1865. Escaped slaves expected Canada to be preferable to America for blacks, but were sorely disappointed. The early abolition of slavery by the British Empire gave them the impression that they were for equality between the races, but in reality the abolition of slavery in Canada hardly meant that the population of British territories wanted to live anywhere near blacks. Whites were as likely, perhaps more likely, to support abolition of black slavery to keep an area all-white and free of blacks as they were to do it out of any moral belief in equality.

You are engaging the classic Canadian "sweep it under the carpet" tactic when you point out that "Canada has only had one lynching in it's history". Yes, Canada with a black population that made up less than a fraction of one percent of the population is going to have far less lynching than somewhere like America where blacks made up anywhere from 10-20% in a given decade and made up a strong majority of the population in states like South Carolina and Mississippi. Take this excerpt from an academic journal addressing the subject:

"Many African-American immigrants originally looked to Canada as a ref-uge from the discrimination they faced in the United States. Samuel Ring-gold Ward, black leader and proud British gentleman, suggested that there is no country in the world so much hated by slaveholders, as Canada; nor is there any country so much beloved and sought for, by the slaves ... [because] it is a free country.î14 According to the North American Convention of Col-ored Freedmen held September 10, 1851, [T]he British government was the most favourable in the civilized world to the people of colour and was thereby entitled to the entire confidence of the Convention. In her plea to American fugitive slaves to immigrate to Canada West, the young Mary Ann Shadd praised the British Empire and asserted, [T]here is no legal discrimi-nation whatever affecting coloured immigrants in Canada, nor from any cause whatever are their privileges sought to be abridged. By mid-century, between 20,000 and 40,000 black people had settled among British and French Canadian colonists, primarily in the rural areas of the southwestern and Niagara peninsulas of Canada West. Significant con-centrations of African Canadians lived in municipalities along the Detroit River and Lake Erie shores such as Amherstburg, Fort Malden, Sandwich, Anderdon, Maidstone, Mersea, Gosfield Colchester, Harrow, and New Canaan from the early nineteenth century. The southwestern shore of Lake Ontario, including the Niagara region, St. Catharines, and Hamilton, was another important area of settlement for black immigrants. Large numbers of African Canadians had also settled further inland in towns such as London and Brantford, in and around Chatham, and as far north as Oro, on the northern shore of Lake Simcoe.

By 1861 an estimated 40 per cent of Canada West black population had been born in the province,18 and, like other Canadians, many African Canadians believed strongly in the egalitarian potential of Brit-ish law. They thus fought for their rights to equal participation in British-Cana-dian institutions. The Committee for the Colored People of Windsor asserted in 1859 that, as Her Majesty's subjects, we desire to share the common blessings of a Free Government in the education of our rising generation ...according to the established Laws of the country of our adoption and choice. Despite legal prohibition against discrimination based on religion, race, or language, however, many white Canadians opposed the settlement of black people in or near their communities and refused them entry into public schools. Edwin Larwill, school commissioner in Raleigh Township, editor of the Chatham Journal and local politician, led a racist movement in Chatham opposing school aid for African Canadians in 1841. In 1848 his anti-black res-olution was supported by the Western District Council, which represented the counties of Essex, Kent, and Lambton, the most important areas of black set-tlement in Canada West.

A year later Larwill led opposition in and around Chatham to the planned Elgin settlement southwest of the town in Raleigh. He argued, the Negro is a distinct species of the human family ... far inferior to the European.... Amalgamation is as disgusting to the eye, as it is immoral in its tendencies and all good men will discountenance it. Walter McCrae, a citizen of Chatham, was present at this meeting. He asserted that the people of the town abhorred slavery and that every mem-ber of the human family is entitled to certain rights and privileges, and nowhere on earth, are they better secured, enjoyed, or more highly valued, than in Canada. At the same time, he argued that the presence of the Negro among [whites] is an annoyance and amalgamation, its necessary and hid-eous attendant, is an evil which requires to be checked ... [We do not want a] horde of ignorant slaves in the township of Raleigh. According to George Duck, chair of the board of school trustees for Chatham, school segregation was supported by the most respectable on the board, whose moderation ...and reasonable view of the question is gratefully acknowledged.

Many Chatham citizens were able to maintain a claim to egalitarian values in the face of their racist practices because black people were presented as morally inferior and thus not subject to the same laws as white people. Across Canada West, white Canadians articulated fears that black children would prove to be a bad moral influence upon their own children if both were allowed to attend the same schools. Giving his opinion on the reasons behind the introduction of the law allowing segregated schools, Chief Justice Beverly Robinson suggested in 1854 that white parents felt an apprehension that the children of the coloured people, many of whom have but lately escaped from a state of slavery may be, in respect to morals and habits, unfortunately worse trained than the white children are in general, and that their children might suffer from the effects of bad example. White people expressed fears that African barbarism might triumph over Anglo-Saxon civilization if black children were allowed to attend schools with white children. In a similar fashion, white citizens of London expressed their concern in 1861 that blacks were rude in speech, uncouth in manners and address and untidy in attire. It was feared that they could have a negative influence upon other children, especially adolescent white girls, if they were to be admitted into the senior classes at Londonís Central School."


Kristin, McLaren. "Despite Legal Prohibition against Discrimination Based on Religion, Race, or Language, However, Many White Canadians Opposed the Settlement of Black People in or near Their Communities and Refused Them Entry into Public Schools. Edwin Larwill, School C." Histoire Sociale 37.73 (2004): 31-33. Print.

Unfortunately the belief that Canada has been less racist than the United States, or that Canada has some moral ground over white Americans when it comes to racism has garnered a virtually religious adherence in Canada, and most specifically, English Canada. It makes even the discussion of these topics really tiresome, as I prefer to take the word of employed Canadian historians over "sources" such as the post of a Che Guevera-avatar user on the democraticunderground.com internet forum.
I really respect your honest approach and use of scholarly sources, hobbesdj. Don't be deterred but you will always be met by strong denial when you question racism in anglo-Canada as the culture of denial is strong (see fusion2's above post for an epic example of this). Keep up the good work.
 
Old 08-09-2015, 11:15 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,141,644 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by PBeauchamp View Post
I really respect your honest approach and use of scholarly sources, hobbesdj. Don't be deterred but you will always be met by strong denial when you question racism in anglo-Canada as the culture of denial is strong (see fusion2's above post for an epic example of this). Keep up the good work.
An epic example of denialism in what context? In a modern day context? I even agreed with Hobbes take on history and the foolishness to somehow try and regard Canadians as having this elevated or morally superior position vs the U.S when it comes to race relations.. In the modern day context though, I think asking real questions about how one views blacks and members of other races/culutres in real life is a VERY important discussion and is far from sweeping things under the rug there.

Ask me any question about any visible minority in any context and I will answer.. Sweeping things under the rug Pbeau.. I'll go toe to toe with anyone over any question in real life about my own life and how I integrate with members of the community the world over and how I have NO FEAR in meshing with anyone and welcoming anyone into life here!

I ask you the same question Pbeau - how many English Canadians are you willing to get to know and engage in either a friendship or even a relationship with.. Would you marry a black person Pbeau? Would you hire one? How open minded are you about various cultures and people of a plethora of racial/ethnic groups living in your community.. Is it right for me to celebrate Diwali with friends and consider my Indian friends as much a part of Canadiana as I do myself? How much do YOU support integration sir?

I think we should all examine how we view those around us and how open minded we all are with these questions because we are making history right now.. There will be the Hobbes types for generations to come examining from a historical perspective our current approach to these questions.. In that regard, I think looking in the here and now is the most important and relevant thing we can possible do. Sweeping it under the rug Pbeau - not at all I advocate picking up the rug and examining every single detail but there is nothing we can do about the past - its done its over we can only change what is happening right now and setting our course into the future.

Last edited by fusion2; 08-10-2015 at 12:01 AM..
 
Old 08-10-2015, 01:21 AM
 
Location: Alberta, Canada
2,175 posts, read 1,752,834 times
Reputation: 2641
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Kristin, McLaren. "Despite Legal Prohibition against Discrimination Based on Religion, Race, or Language, However, Many White Canadians Opposed the Settlement of Black People in or near Their Communities and Refused Them Entry into Public Schools. Edwin Larwill, School C." Histoire Sociale 37.73 (2004): 31-33. Print.
Hobbes, I'm having a hard time finding this online (there seem to be two "Histoire Sociales" that Google turns up, neither of which has a search function that turns up your source). Note, I have no criticism of your source (heck, given the lack of sources on C-D, I'm glad that you gave one), but I would like to read your source in context before I comment. Could you provide a direct link to your source? Thanks!
 
Old 08-10-2015, 07:53 AM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,263,797 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post
Hobbes, I'm having a hard time finding this online (there seem to be two "Histoire Sociales" that Google turns up, neither of which has a search function that turns up your source). Note, I have no criticism of your source (heck, given the lack of sources on C-D, I'm glad that you gave one), but I would like to read your source in context before I comment. Could you provide a direct link to your source? Thanks!
"We had no desire to be set apart": Forced Segregation of Black Students in Canada West Public Schools and Myths of British Egalitarianism | McLaren | Histoire sociale / Social History
 
Old 08-10-2015, 07:55 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,947 posts, read 27,354,178 times
Reputation: 8603
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
The Tower of Babel is nothing to be jealous about. These issues were settled on the Plains of Abraham. The British and then English Canada was exceedingly generous in permitting French a role. The U.S. forced Louisiana to declare English the official state language in granting it admission as a state in 1812.

Why the constant pot-stirring?
Thanks for this, Dr. Feelgood!
 
Old 08-10-2015, 08:17 AM
 
18,276 posts, read 10,377,134 times
Reputation: 13338
While understanding that racism existed in Canada and still does; it should also be mentioned, so to did an ability for blacks to flourish in spite of whatever racism they encountered.

Ontario Heritage Trust - Slavery to Freedom

Welcome to African Canadian Online

also in the context of racism, it existed as predominantly towards aborigionals as did slavery in New France.

http://www.historymuseum.ca/virtual-...ation/slavery/

Finally; excerpted from above link:

"In Canada, the colonial economy did not favour the growth of slavery because the economy’s two principal industries required little manual labour: The fur trade was controlled by a small group of professionals and essentially relied on the labour of Native fur trappers. Manual labour in families was sufficient for small farming operations. Furthermore, the purchase of an Aboriginal or Black slave was an unaffordable expense for settler-proprietors. A Black slave cost from 800 to 1000 pounds, that is, twice as much as an Aboriginal slave. In the 18th century, the annual average income of an unskilled worker was about 100 pounds. That of a bona fide artisan was from 200 to 400 pounds."
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