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Old 08-05-2015, 03:23 PM
 
18,330 posts, read 10,403,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post
Of course they do; the US's so powerful (and I'll grant this to you, hard to ignore) that even some of its own citizens resent it. You'll find no shortage of Americans to tell you how awful the US is. I think that's way too harsh, but that's the thing: Americans do discuss their issues in all their ugliness.
With the implication Canadians do not?

We just got finished with this one and I think the discussions were very open, don't you? Truth and Reconciliation Commission: By the numbers - Aboriginal - CBC

In my lifetime there have been any number of Royal Commissions established with many of them discussing our dirty laundry based upon the overarching demand for "peace, order and good government" emanating out of the British North America Act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...al_Commissions

They weren't held for show but for the purpose of investigating a perceived inequity and airing it publicly, warts and all.

Canada also discusses their issues in all their ugliness AND, as witnessed with the TRC, actually does assign responsibility and attempt change. Do you see anything like that formal a procedure to address wrongs, other than just spouting about it in the press then business as usual, as in some other countries?

 
Old 08-05-2015, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,703 posts, read 8,778,861 times
Reputation: 7319
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
With the implication Canadians do not?

We just got finished with this one and I think the discussions were very open, don't you? Truth and Reconciliation Commission: By the numbers - Aboriginal - CBC

In my lifetime there have been any number of Royal Commissions established with many of them discussing our dirty laundry based upon the overarching demand for "peace, order and good government" emanating out of the British North America Act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...al_Commissions

They weren't held for show but for the purpose of investigating a perceived inequity and airing it publicly, warts and all.

Canada also discusses their issues in all their ugliness AND, as witnessed with the TRC, actually does assign responsibility and attempt change. Do you see anything like that formal a procedure to address wrongs, other than just spouting about it in the press then business as usual, as in some other countries?


I find the attitude that " Anglo Canadians " aren't self -analyzing insulting, but somehow, miraculously others are.
 
Old 08-05-2015, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,159,858 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
With the implication Canadians do not?

We just got finished with this one and I think the discussions were very open, don't you? Truth and Reconciliation Commission: By the numbers - Aboriginal - CBC

In my lifetime there have been any number of Royal Commissions established with many of them discussing our dirty laundry based upon the overarching demand for "peace, order and good government" emanating out of the British North America Act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...al_Commissions

They weren't held for show but for the purpose of investigating a perceived inequity and airing it publicly, warts and all.

Canada also discusses their issues in all their ugliness AND, as witnessed with the TRC, actually does assign responsibility and attempt change. Do you see anything like that formal a procedure to address wrongs, other than just spouting about it in the press then business as usual, as in some other countries?
Good post Bru... You...just....get....it lol
 
Old 08-05-2015, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,159,858 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Geez guys. I am starting to feel left out!
I told you I loved you too AJ - look back a few pages ago
 
Old 08-05-2015, 04:17 PM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,014,859 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Good post Bru... You...just....get....it lol
Not really....I kid I kid.
 
Old 08-05-2015, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,159,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post
Francophone Quebecers don't "high-five" each other about the superiority of their culture; this may sound meta but it's not part of our culture to do so. On the other hand Canadians really do like claiming cultural superiority, especially to the United States. I mean, in the HitchBOT thread we're being told that this non-event illustrates some great truths about American society, that is (of course) its xenophobia, gun obsession, etc., etc., etc. I mean, come on. What Vive was saying wasn't "Canada sucks" but "Canada isn't any better than the US or any other modern, Western, developed country, get off your high f-ing horse." We know the US is a racist society. We know Quebec is a racist society. Is Canada a racist society?

You know, there's a reason why Quebec has an independence movement that just cannot die even though it also can never rally a majority of the population, and why, as is constantly repeated here, even among Quebec federalists a great pride in being Canadian isn't universal. You may say as jambo does that it's because Canada's full of "maudits Anglais", whom we hate and don't want to be associated to in any way, and I guess that's true for some people. But if you allow me to tell you how I personally feel, I'm very incomfortable with the self-righteousness of Canadian culture which to me is very foreign. I'm not saying without this I'd feel Canadian, I also have an issue with how it seems like I'm being told, even by federalists and by English Canadians, to "choose" between my Quebec identity and subsuming it into a "Canadian" one which doesn't feel natural, but I am saying it's unappealing to me.
I meant people on this forum high fiving as a means of confirmation bias - not necessarily Quebecers as a whole..

I just want to again quote what Vive wrote for the benefit of others:

"For the running debate I prefer the US to English Canada for so many reasons. Actually Americans look more open minded for differences"

This is a very generalized statement and there are numerous examples where it certainly doesn't appear carte blanche to be the case. I brought those up but only a few of us have challenged this comment. The 'high' five group won't and it isn't to be expected they would.. It fits nicely into their perspective that Anglo Canadians have a superiority complex or is it an inferiority complex (I don't even know anymore) and that we are 'self-righteous' as a collective people who somehow don't evolve or critique ourselves for the progress of innumerable groups in society.. I don't really see this tbh... On some matters this may be the case but those who make the claim should be specific and nuanced about it and at the very least balance out the commentary.. Otherwise it just becomes a pointing fingers exercise and hardly constructive.

If you want to make an argument be specific and support it with xyz.. It wouldn't hurt to say, however on the matter of exhibit b for example, Anglo Canada has done a good job.. Otherwise its just the same crap over and over again and it becomes the boy who cried wolf exercise. Who wants to constantly be 'evaluated' by others and almost without fail its the same you guys are bad because - its always a negative spin against one and an over the top inflated positive spin on the other.
 
Old 08-05-2015, 04:34 PM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,014,859 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
There's no sense going on about this in here Ed and you wouldn't be surprised that I don't agree but sometimes better to let sleeping dogs lie... I'll just leave it at that and move on.. On a side note - I've been carded by the TPS on two separate occasions and on one it was most certainly because I am gay - just an fyi! As for being a virtual brother - feelings still mutual
Sorry I did not address you directly Fusion. I happily will let this lie, because especially on the topic of racism and how uncomfortable Canadians are speaking about it, we will never see eye to eye. I think it is because we come from a different experience, so that will never change.

I stand corrected about you not understanding the carding issue before it became big news, so I apologize for the assumption. The fact that you have been carded based on sexual orientation is even more reason to be frustrated that it took this long for people to finally listen to what certain Toronto citizens have been screaming about for years, and that is racial profiling is alive and well in the city. Ask the average Torontonian a few years back if racial profiling was just as big a problem in Toronto as it was in US cities and what answer do you think you would have received? Be honest when answering that.
 
Old 08-05-2015, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,159,858 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
Not really....I kid I kid.
He does bring up good counter points though and its understandable because instead of people bringing balance to their posts, by design they are trying to corner people.. Its the same as the premise of the OP's original question that I challenged.. Why not just pose the question, what do English Canadians admire about French Canadian culture and Quebec.. That would have changed the dynamic completely and this may actually have turned into a constructive discussion...
 
Old 08-05-2015, 04:51 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,159,858 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
Sorry I did not address you directly Fusion. I happily will let this lie, because especially on the topic of racism and how uncomfortable Canadians are speaking about it, we will never see eye to eye. I think it is because we come from a different experience, so that will never change.
Why not discuss the topic of racism in Canada with the goal of having an open and constructive discussion on the matter without connecting it to some sort of idealized representation of how comfortable Americans are purported to be discussing the matter. If we agree that both Canada and the U.S have issues with race relations than would it not stand to reason that Americans may actually be as uncomfortable as Canadians are otherwise the country simply would have a much stronger track record than Canada.. I think the results aren't necessarily as positive in the U.S as some may like to believe. In some ways this may be the case, but not everywhere and as much as you've had positive experiences as a black man in the U.S Ed - there are just too many issues with race relations in the U.S to play the we have better results than you do card. In some ways yes in others no - perhaps both countries can learn from the other which is probably more closer to reality than one simply does better than the other on this matter across the board.

As a white guy who has been surrounded by white Americans I've clearly had experiences that demonstrate quite openly that there are still big problems with race relations in the U.S.. So, lets accept that fact and have constructive conversations without the need to get into nationalistic finger pointing.. I'm not doubting that there are issues with race relations in Canada and by all means lets have those discussion but at the very least lets be open and honest about the issues in other places because we all know very well they exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
I stand corrected about you not understanding the carding issue before it became big news, so I apologize for the assumption. The fact that you have been carded based on sexual orientation is even more reason to be frustrated that it took this long for people to finally listen to what certain Toronto citizens have been screaming about for years, and that is racial profiling is alive and well in the city. Ask the average Torontonian a few years back if racial profiling was just as big a problem in Toronto as it was in US cities and what answer do you think you would have received? Be honest when answering that.
I think part of the problem is that Canadians have more faith in institutions and governance more than not being open minded to matters of inequality.. To answer your question, now that this is out in the open people are more vocal about it.. So talking is good but at the same time I hope the results are a truly more accepting society as a result of such open discussion and that there are actual results and improvement in the conditions or minorities as opposed to lots of talk and less action and results..
 
Old 08-05-2015, 05:05 PM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,014,859 times
Reputation: 2662
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Why not discuss the topic of racism in Canada with the goal of having an open and constructive discussion on the matter without connecting it to some sort of idealized representation of how comfortable Americans are purported to be discussing the matter. If we agree that both Canada and the U.S have issues with race relations than would it not stand to reason that Americans may actually be as uncomfortable as Canadians are otherwise the country simply would have a much stronger track record than Canada.. I think the results aren't necessarily as positive in the U.S as some may like to believe.

As a white guy who has been surrounded by white Americans I've clearly had experiences that demonstrate quite openly that there is big problems with race relations in the U.S.. So, lets accept that fact and have constructive conversations without the need to get into nationalistic finger pointing.. I'm not doubting that there are issues with race relations in Canada and by all means lets have those discussion but at the very least lets be open and honest about the issues in other places because we all know very well they exist.
As I said earlier, please show me where anyone said that racism has been eradicated in the US? You cant fusion, so why do you continue to use that as the basis of your argument. We are talking about comfort in which the issues are discussed and in order to discuss something those issues have to exist in the first place. So I am not sure where you are dreaming this up, but please point it out if I missed that part of the discussion.

Just for reference I was one of those people that had mixed emotions about President Obama being elected. A part of me was proud and happy that someone that resembled me racially was able to convincingly win an election in a country with such a long, tough, bloody racial history.

On the other hand I was dreading what this meant for racism in the country at the same time. I feared that some people would use it as an excuse to ignore inequalities that still exist and try to prove that we live in some post racial society. I also feared that since the white power structure was finally challenged in a meaningful way you would start to really see the racists come out the woodwork and express their true feelings now that white supremacy has been challenged out in the open.

Trust me I was not alone in these feelings, so no one is under some illusion that racism is gone from the US. But man its kind of refreshing that this election and re-election pushed all the bigots out the closet, Id rather see them out in the open.


Quote:
I think part of the problem is that Canadians have more faith in institutions and governance more than not being open minded to matters of inequality.. To answer your question, now that this is out in the open people are more vocal about it.. So talking is good but at the same time I hope the results are a truly more accepting society as a result of such open discussion and that there are actual results and improvement in the conditions of the majority of the citizenry..
Well they shouldnt have such faith and there are many Canadians who have never had faith in these institutions because they have seen the ugly side of them up, close and personal. Maybe everyone else should have listened and not brushed it off as complaining all these years.
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