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Old 08-20-2015, 03:35 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,670 posts, read 8,737,253 times
Reputation: 7279

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
Hahahaha this is awesome.

The guy played right into the journalists' questions. This is election season, and every news outlet is on the look out for this kind of material, and he has just provided what they need. Too bad the guy's a nobody so this will all blow over after 3 days.
"Earl Cowan, identified by both the Ukrainian Canadian Congress "


Earl Cowan, Angry Conservative Heckler, May Be Same Guy Who Told Chow To 'Go Back To China'
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Old 08-20-2015, 04:03 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,128,404 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyyc View Post
First of all, I would never thing you're "wrong" for thinking what you do, as it's your opinion. I don't disagree with your points, but share a differing view on some of them.

I totally agree with the fact that we're a declawed house cat looking to pick a fight with a Bear, but part of that stance is for internal political reasons as much as it is in principle, and I think part of it is foreshadowing our future.

A large part of the Prairies, and the Conservative base can trace their roots back to Ukraine, and a number of other Slavic countries. Standing up to the mean ol' Russians plays well, just like preventing abortions and hating gays plays well to the Republican base in the US. The other piece is that Canada is going to be duking it out with Russia in the media and international courts over the Arctic. It's important to be seen as someone who is willing to stand up for the underdog, as we're going to need all the help we can get in the near future, and who knows what UN votes you may need. You don't have Russia, but if you can pick up some of their nervous neighbours for support, that's never a bad thing.

As far as everything else goes for Canada, no one gives a crap. Really. Canada's profile is so low internationally, long before Harper, that there is no "image" other than the nice people in America's hat. Hell there's a thread where everyone pretty much throws up their hands and says we're an American dependency. For all the hand wringing and everything else, other than Canadians, no on cares. We are an afterthought. A large part of that is that our international profile is that we're "nice". Vanilla, bland, uninteresting. We don't stand for anything because we just want everyone to get along. All of that is perfectly fine, but having leadership that believes in something, even if you disagree with it, is better than just pushing through, filling your pockets and not pissing anyone off. At least if there is disagreement, there's discussion, and hopefully a better result for everyone.

Oh and I totally agree about our military being gutted, but that's more the result of a generation of neglect and lack of planning by previous governments than the fault of the one in power. Look at the howling whenever the thought of spending any money for icebreakers or other military hardware is brought up. F35 is a total debacle though. We should have pulled the pin years ago and gone with the Super Hornet or the Mirage.
Well i'm glad that you don't disagree with me lol - but I do have a difference of opinion when you say carte blanche that 'nobody' gives a crap about Canada or our position.. I think there has definitely been a shift with Harper and I do definitely think foreign governments have taken notice and it absolutely WILL impact how they deal with us.. I have personally seen this in my industry where politics can trickle down to business. Canada is not this insulated little innocent 'thing' in America's hat - you sound like Pbeau here lol.

As for generational gutting of the military I agree with you 100 percent - its easy to blame Harper and this has been going on way before - BUT Mike there is a key difference here - Harper is more vocal and assertive than I've seen any Canadian leader in my lifetime and I don't like it and I spoke to that at length in my post by providing some examples.. At least previous leaders knew that Canada is not a military power and adjusted their rhetoric and approach accordingly. The explanation that nobody cares anyway regardless is just a weak counter imo and not the case either!

On a final note - Super Hornet is almost as disappointing as the F35 and the Mirage is quite old - you sure you're not mistaking the Dassault Rafale with the Mirage.. The F18 can dance around a Mirage - now the Rafale is a very capable platform and a more impressive plane than either the F35 or the Super Hornet BUT - its also on the pricey side..

A good plane that should have been given consideration with great bang for the buck is the Saab Gripen. We could get a lot more than 65 of these for the extraordinary cost of the F35 - heck we'd actually have a respectable air force if we went with the Gripen which is also a very capable platform.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxMYFYDNF_g
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Old 08-20-2015, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Montreal
359 posts, read 264,066 times
Reputation: 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
Extreme right wing politics of this style...Harper style...is not a Canadian political tradition. It is from the US.
The extreme right in the US is where Harper gets his style of politics.

I don't believe I have ever used the term "real Canadian", that is your take.

I know from your posts that you are blind to English speaking Canada and simply refuse to believe that we have an identity and a vision of what Canada is.

Canada as a peacemaker not a war maker.
Canada as a place where the common good has importance
Canada as a place where people see healthcare as a human right
Canada as a place that values diversity and equality for all
The physical size of the country which such a small population also has an effect on our identity.
There is a myriad of values and traditions that have bound this country together. In some ways it's a miracle that with such a large land mass and such a small population that this country even exists and work...or used to work before the Cons have set on destroying it.


Harper and his neocons are the opposite of that vision...or haven't you been paying attention?
Are you joking? Canada in itself is a conservative reaction to the United States. Canadian political tradition? Then get rid of democratic rule altogether because that is an American import. The purpose of Canada was to be a stronghold of monarchy. Canada not a warmaker? WWI and WWI must be in our imaginations. BTW I lived in English Canada for nearly 25 years, lived in four different provinces, earned a degree there, dated your women (nearly married one), had my best friends there.

You?

You aren't even bilingual and as far as I can tell never resided outside of BC. I will take a wild guess based on your rhetoric that you are also over 50 years old at minimum.

Sorry, but as ideal as your values are, you are describing Vancouver and equating that to Canada. You are outlining the Liberal Party values and calling that Canadian. BTW I am a dedicated supporter of the party, but the things you are saying are pure ignorance. If Harper wasn't Canadian, he wouldn't have been elected by Canadians. Looks like you are really out of touch with Canada.

Lastly, the saddest part is that you are so dead set against change of any kind, but I am sure at the same time you support mass immigration which is bringing rapid change to us. Get used to people like Boticelli because they are the future!

It's one thing to disagree with different points of view but it's unnecessary to delve into appointing who is a "real" Canadian and who is not. That's xenophobia at it's finest.
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Old 08-20-2015, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Montreal
359 posts, read 264,066 times
Reputation: 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
"Earl Cowan, identified by both the Ukrainian Canadian Congress "


Earl Cowan, Angry Conservative Heckler, May Be Same Guy Who Told Chow To 'Go Back To China'
So Earl Cowan is a xenophobe, but you deciding who qualifies as a "real" Canadian is not? Narrow mindedness at it's finest. These are the kind of ridiculous contradictions that drive people away from the Liberals.
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Old 08-20-2015, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,128,404 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by PBeauchamp View Post

Get used to people like Boticelli because they are the future!

.
Ummm Botti is Botti lol - Pbeau is well Pbeau...
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,670 posts, read 8,737,253 times
Reputation: 7279
Quote:
Originally Posted by PBeauchamp View Post
So Earl Cowan is a xenophobe, but you deciding who qualifies as a "real" Canadian is not? Narrow mindedness at it's finest. These are the kind of ridiculous contradictions that drive people away from the Liberals.
The Harper article that taught us to get angry again
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,670 posts, read 8,737,253 times
Reputation: 7279
Quote:
Originally Posted by PBeauchamp View Post
Are you joking? Canada in itself is a conservative reaction to the United States. Canadian political tradition? Then get rid of democratic rule altogether because that is an American import. The purpose of Canada was to be a stronghold of monarchy. Canada not a warmaker? WWI and WWI must be in our imaginations. BTW I lived in English Canada for nearly 25 years, lived in four different provinces, earned a degree there, dated your women (nearly married one), had my best friends there.

You?

You aren't even bilingual and as far as I can tell never resided outside of BC. I will take a wild guess based on your rhetoric that you are also over 50 years old at minimum.

Sorry, but as ideal as your values are, you are describing Vancouver and equating that to Canada. You are outlining the Liberal Party values and calling that Canadian. BTW I am a dedicated supporter of the party, but the things you are saying are pure ignorance. If Harper wasn't Canadian, he wouldn't have been elected by Canadians. Looks like you are really out of touch with Canada.

Lastly, the saddest part is that you are so dead set against change of any kind, but I am sure at the same time you support mass immigration which is bringing rapid change to us. Get used to people like Boticelli because they are the future!

It's one thing to disagree with different points of view but it's unnecessary to delve into appointing who is a "real" Canadian and who is not. That's xenophobia at it's finest.
This post is so full of hyperbole, inaccuracies and well B.S. that I don't know where to begin.

Being in a war does NOT make a country a war maker. Starting wars does, or going into wars that we have no business being in does.

Pulling the bilingual card means nothing.

I'm not against change. Did you just make that up ? I've been through a lot of it in my life. However I know the difference between good and bad change. As they say, change for the sake of change....

Again...I never used the term " real Canadian "...at least I don't remember doing so. Can you find that post please? If you can't then stop putting words into my mouth to satisfy your lack of an argument.

I know Harper is Canadian..but I'll let Elizabeth May have a word here.

"What makes me say Mr. Harper has strayed from those traditional Canadian values and style of governance? Well, here's a short list:

1) First prime minister of Canada to prorogue to avoid political difficulties since Sir John A Macdonald, and Macdonald, on return, immediately went to an election.

2) First Canadian prime minister to prorogue twice to avoid political difficulties.

3) Only prime minister in the entire Commonwealth in the last 100 years to prorogue to avoid a political difficulty. (The prime minister of Sri Lanka tried once, but the Governor General refused).

4) First prime minister to run a system of rigid party discipline in parliamentary committees, rejecting any and all amendments to legislation. Previously legislative committee worked quite collaboratively and legislation was nearly always amended prior to Royal Assent.

5) Prime minister Harper was found guilty of contempt of parliament in refusing to turn over the documents in the Afghan detainee matter. The documents have not been tabled to this day.

6) First prime minister to visibly chafe at the reality that he is not head of state. In Canada Day festivities on Parliament Hill one year, he insisted on accepting the Royal Salute ahead of the former Governor General. The use of Centre Block as a stage for pomp and ceremony for visiting presidents is contrary to our constitution. Heads of state should be greeted at Rideau Hall. The red carpets and flags in the main hall of Parliament are completely contrary to our traditions.

7) He acts as though he is in charge of Parliament, instead of acknowledging the supremacy of Parliament. This attitude is reflected in telling civil servants they should refer to the Government of Canada, as the "Harper Government."

8) Understanding Canadian parliamentary democracy includes understanding that every MP is part of the Government of Canada. The Conservative executive is comprised of the PM and his Cabinet (or Privy Council). Mr. Harper is the first prime minister to insist on treating Opposition MPs as though they are not part of the government. This is demonstrated in the systematic exclusion of local Opposition MPs from announcements in their ridings. The Harper approach is to tell local groups they cannot hold events at which federal dollars are involved with their own MP, unless that MP is Conservative. So, local MPs are not given the courtesy of even a chance to sit in the back row, while Conservative MPs from other areas make local announcements.

9) Mr. Harper rejects the role of Parliament as having control of the public purse. MPs are not given enough fiscal background to make wise choices. The former Parliamentary Budget Officer went to court to gain access to such information for MPs. Despite gaining court approval for our right to that information, the new PBO has still not successfully wrested it from the executive.

10) Add to all this the consistent application of U.S.-style attack ads, even outside of writ periods. Stephen Harper is the first political leader in Canadian history to run television advertising more than a year before the election."


10 Reasons Why Harper Isn't Really Canadian*|*Elizabeth May
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,670 posts, read 8,737,253 times
Reputation: 7279
Quote:
Originally Posted by PBeauchamp View Post
So Earl Cowan is a xenophobe, but you deciding who qualifies as a "real" Canadian is not? Narrow mindedness at it's finest. These are the kind of ridiculous contradictions that drive people away from the Liberals.
Yes he is. He is the same man who shouted at Olivia Chow and told her to go back where she came from. Not sure how calling him out makes it a contradiction. I don't see your logic.

Unless it's the same type of " logic " that calls someone intolerant because they are intolerant against intolerance.

Last edited by Natnasci; 08-20-2015 at 05:26 PM..
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Old 08-21-2015, 08:49 AM
 
Location: Hougary, Texberta
8,565 posts, read 11,062,540 times
Reputation: 10270
Fusion, you're totally right. I confused my love for the old Mirage/Kfir with the new Rafale. Saab, I'm just not sure. The Grippen doesn't instill a lot of confidence, and it's not widely used. But anything is better than the cluster that is the F35. I know they want to lean on the US suppliers, but I think it would have been neat to have a Rafale, and something that's just not a hotter engine different paint job than the USAF/USN

I don't mean to sound dismissive of Canada's role. I was born and raised in Canada for 35+ years, and have been living in the states for the past eight years, and I travel the world fairly extensively for work. I just know, from experience, and even still dealing with friends/family/associates in Canada that we have a distorted look at our place in the world. I would put Canada below Australia in terms of influence, as at least they're a regional power in Oceana, while most Canadians seem to think we're up there falling in behind the UK and Germany. There may be the odd conversation about things the Canadian government has done, but it's not a replacement of good things being said, it's just that for once someone noticed anything.

While Natnasci and PB can debate between the direction of socialist environmental paradise and Mad Max wasteland US 2.0, the reality is somewhere in the middle. The Harper government is nowhere near a right wing neo-con party, they're just conservative for Canada, which in itself is a knee jerk reaction to economic uncertainty.

When the economy globally is up and running smoothly, Canada will return to a Liberal paradise. That being said, if we don't make our own defense a huge priority, we're going to find that other people will be running the Canadian Arctic and we'll have no say at all.
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Old 08-21-2015, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,320,303 times
Reputation: 8601
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyyc View Post

I don't mean to sound dismissive of Canada's role. I was born and raised in Canada for 35+ years, and have been living in the states for the past eight years, and I travel the world fairly extensively for work. I just know, from experience, and even still dealing with friends/family/associates in Canada that we have a distorted look at our place in the world. I would put Canada below Australia in terms of influence, as at least they're a regional power in Oceana, while most Canadians seem to think we're up there falling in behind the UK and Germany. There may be the odd conversation about things the Canadian government has done, but it's not a replacement of good things being said, it's just that for once someone noticed anything.

.
Good points. I agree and can't believe the contrary is being seriously argued.
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