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Old 12-06-2015, 04:14 PM
 
261 posts, read 203,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Only a small percentage of the stuff posted by jambo as affronts to anglos gets covered by the francophone media BTW.
Yes, we want to believe that we are in the right while they are wrong. This is true both of anglophones and of francophones. But I still feel as if there's a slight difference between anglophones and francophones (francophones in position of dominance, so those in Quebec) in how they'd interpret these so-called affronts. As we've said before, Quebecers are all about "discussing the issues", everything gets debated at length in the public sphere, while this is not nearly as true elsewhere in the country. So if there's a claim that a francophone somewhere was racist to an anglophone, or to a member of a ethnic minority, and it's picked up by the media, then it will be discussed at length in public. Even if francophone media doesn't cover it at first, the fact is that francophone media are more aware of what's found in anglophone media than the other way around. So some people will say the presumed victim was in the wrong, but others will call for a thorough examination of racism in Quebec society, and we'll see expressed all intermediate viewpoints.

I don't think the same is true of English Canada. See, for this particular case, ChevySpoons, who's a very reasonable guy, immediately went with the assumption that the lady is just trying to delay her case. Because he's seen before efforts done to accommodate non-English-speaking people in court, and he knows how Canada values its francophone minority and all the efforts that are done to give service in French, and bilingualism, and all that, so he just cannot imagine a judge being a jerk to a francophone asking for a trial in French unless the claimant really deserved it. That just wouldn't be what Canada's all about, so it just can't be right.

I very often get this impression when I'm debating with Canadian anglophones, that there's a lot of things they just know, because they've been told so, and which they aren't willing to put in doubt. And unsurprisingly they seem to always go for the same arguments. It's as if they learned the "correct" answer to a number of claims I might be making, but haven't pushed their understanding further. Now of course they're not the only ones in this regard (I know a good number of nationalist Quebecer arguments that are frequently reheated and unthinkingly served) but I still get the impression that Quebec's culture of public debate fosters a greater acceptance of questioning our values than elsewhere in Canada.
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Old 12-06-2015, 04:51 PM
 
261 posts, read 203,127 times
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Actually now that I think of it, I have a question that I think we should all ask ourselves. Suppose there is a minority that's given some rights, at least locally. For example, if we're talking about language rights, it could be francophones having the right to a trial in French in English Canada, or anglophones having the right to be served in English in a hospital in Quebec. And suppose that for some reason, this right is not always respected. There are some issues, it doesn't always work well. Is this something we'd like to know, or is it something we'd prefer not knowing?

The rules are as follows: if we'd like to know, then it means that once we hear about it we need to expend some effort to correct the situation, but if we correct it then members of this minority will be happy about it. If we'd rather not know, then it means we don't have to do anything about it, we can keep going about our day thinking we're always doing what's best for our minorities, our reputation is intact, but in reality we're wrong about our belief and the minority is unhappy.

This really cuts into the heart of why exactly minority rights exist. And who are they really made for.
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Old 12-06-2015, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,947 posts, read 27,365,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post
Actually now that I think of it, I have a question that I think we should all ask ourselves. Suppose there is a minority that's given some rights, at least locally. For example, if we're talking about language rights, it could be francophones having the right to a trial in French in English Canada, or anglophones having the right to be served in English in a hospital in Quebec. And suppose that for some reason, this right is not always respected. There are some issues, it doesn't always work well. Is this something we'd like to know, or is it something we'd prefer not knowing?

The rules are as follows: if we'd like to know, then it means that once we hear about it we need to expend some effort to correct the situation, but if we correct it then members of this minority will be happy about it. If we'd rather not know, then it means we don't have to do anything about it, we can keep going about our day thinking we're always doing what's best for our minorities, our reputation is intact, but in reality we're wrong about our belief and the minority is unhappy.

This really cuts into the heart of why exactly minority rights exist. And who are they really made for.
So what you are really getting at is that minority rights really exist for the majority's good conscience and image, as opposed to the well-being of minorities themselves.
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Old 12-06-2015, 06:07 PM
 
261 posts, read 203,127 times
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I honestly don't know. I think we need to ask ourselves this question.
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Old 12-06-2015, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,947 posts, read 27,365,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post
I honestly don't know. I think we need to ask ourselves this question.

It is a cynical view, but we are living in cynical times...
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Old 12-06-2015, 11:19 PM
 
34,395 posts, read 41,499,470 times
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Did the woman follow proper procedures to indicate her preference for proceedings to be done in French?I'm sure previous to the court case papers had to be filled out and one of the questions would have been her language preference for the case.IMO her need for French to prevail was a sudden last minute decision on her part and something the court was unprepared for instantaneously .
I hardly think a judge is going to blatantly defy/disregard the law.
Justice in Both Languages - Ministry of the Attorney General
As said before we are missing pieces to this story.

Last edited by jambo101; 12-06-2015 at 11:39 PM..
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Old 12-07-2015, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,947 posts, read 27,365,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
Did the woman follow proper procedures to indicate her preference for proceedings to be done in French?I'm sure previous to the court case papers had to be filled out and one of the questions would have been her language preference for the case.IMO her need for French to prevail was a sudden last minute decision on her part and something the court was unprepared for instantaneously .
I hardly think a judge is going to blatantly defy/disregard the law.
Justice in Both Languages - Ministry of the Attorney General
As said before we are missing pieces to this story.
I don't know why you and some others continue to insinuate that she just showed up at the courthouse in Toronto and unreasonably demanded everything in French.

It's very clear in the article: she asked for a trial in French in advance. She was told this was not possible. The court offered an interpreter as a solution. She said OK but when she showed up for the trial there was no interpreter. When she went to see the clerk of the court, she was told she had to bring her own interpreter and pay for him or her. And then the judge stepped in and told her she didn't need an interpreter because she spoke English just fine. And added she was wasting taxpayer money.

Right there there are a number of violations of procedures for court cases in the official language of "choice", and the Ministry of the Attorney General of Ontario has admitted that mistakes were made.

And the provincial watchdog that oversees such matters in Ontario says he had about 40 such cases during the past year.

Why is all of this so difficult to understand or accept?
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Old 12-07-2015, 11:48 AM
 
261 posts, read 203,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Why is all of this so difficult to understand or accept?
Got any guesses?
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Old 12-07-2015, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,947 posts, read 27,365,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post
Got any guesses?
I'm trying to give them a chance!
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Old 12-07-2015, 03:19 PM
 
34,395 posts, read 41,499,470 times
Reputation: 29872
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I'm trying to give them a chance!
The stories point is that a woman was denied legal representation in French in her court case with the implied assumption the judge was the sole reason for this.
I dont know all the facts and certainly dont buy the story that the judge would put his job and integrity on the line and contravene Canadas Charter of Rights to deny this woman her day in court in French.
Has the court case been resolved? has it been postponed to a later date?
.
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