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Old 10-01-2015, 10:55 AM
 
695 posts, read 737,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIMBAM View Post
The definition of Anglo for the purposes of that statistic is not defined by whether or not you speak French, it is only mother tongue. The vast majority of native Quebec Anglophones are bilingual to some degree.
While the majority "are bilingual to some degree" roughly 1/3 are not. Furthermore, "bilingual to some degree" could mean anything from fluent & functionally native to someone who can converse on a basic level and read signs in french but cannot write or function in a work environment.


For example, I can speak Spanish fairly fluently but I don't have the vocabulary to perform my job 100% in Spanish, even though I can speak to my patients in that language. So while I can work with Spanish speakers in an Anglophone or Francophone work environment, it's unlikely that I could travel to Spain or Argentina and perform my job in a context where my co-workers and superiors are all Spanish-Speaking I need to have a functional command of a wide body of knowledge in Spanish.
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Old 10-01-2015, 01:10 PM
 
261 posts, read 203,233 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIMBAM View Post
What's more relevant, the society you actually live in, or things that happened before you were born? I also would not say that there is a refusal to acknowledge, it seems to me that it is fairly acknowledged, the conflict is over the implications of that and what is the correct thing to do now.
I often hear from anglophones that the reason why francophones in Canada were politically and economically marginalized before the Quiet Revolution was mostly (or entirely) due to the Catholic Church, not to the British or Canadian governments, or to Canadian anglophones. And that the Conquest and British colonialism were a positive for francophones, since it "civilized" the country so to speak. So I'm not convinced anglophones really acknowledge this.

I know the argument. "Sure, it's possible that in Ontario and Manitoba and elsewhere, education in French used to be illegal, but it's not the case anymore, isn't it? Now they've even got French immersion schools! And in official speeches, all English Canadian politicians will recognize the value of bilingualism and even say a few words in French to show how they value the contribution of francophones! So Quebec should restore English as official language and open English schools to everybody who wants to send their kids there." But that's making an equation between the status of English and of French in Canada that while very popular in Canadian culture*, doesn't exist in reality, in good part due to previous oppression such as the aforementioned making schooling in French illegal in large parts of Canada. Even the Official Languages Commissioner has trouble recognizing that Canada does not really have two languages, one that's powerful and the other threatened in part of the country, and the other way around in another part of the country. It has two languages, one that is powerful, and the other one that's highly threatened in most of the country, and in an enviable but not entirely secure position in one single part of it. It's not a symmetric situation.

*And when you manage to convince anglophones that the situation is not in fact symmetric (for example, that it's much easier to get service in English even in a smaller Quebec city than in French in some large English Canadian cities), their answer is usually that on reflection, it turns out that French is a totally useless language. So English and French are in similar positions in Canada, and if you can show they aren't, then okay sure but who cares? That's a debate we can't win.
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Old 10-01-2015, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,960 posts, read 27,383,424 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post

I know the argument. "Sure, it's possible that in Ontario and Manitoba and elsewhere, education in French used to be illegal, but it's not the case anymore, isn't it? Now they've even got French immersion schools! And in official speeches, all English Canadian politicians will recognize the value of bilingualism and even say a few words in French to show how they value the contribution of francophones!
And road signs that say "WEST/OUEST" and "Ch. Tumbleweed Valley South Rd." in some places too!
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Old 10-01-2015, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,960 posts, read 27,383,424 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamondz1902 View Post
The things that happened before you were born (which isn't quite true for a sizable % of Quebecois) provide the context for what goes on in the society that you live in. Expecting people to forgive and forget and hold hands and sing koumbaya is silly.
There is also (for lack of a better term) a "legacy power relationship" that stems from the history. I suppose it is fading out over time, but it's still there. In historical terms, the "affirmation" of francophones wasn't that long ago.
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Old 10-01-2015, 02:20 PM
 
261 posts, read 203,233 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
And road signs that say "WEST/OUEST" and "Ch. Tumbleweed Valley South Rd." in some places too!
Maybe I'm wrong, but English Canadian culture seems to consider showing that you care about an issue as very important, maybe even more important than actually trying to solve it. I'm reminded of a friend, who's a francophone living in Ottawa. Like many of them, he's very critical of Quebec for "abandoning" other francophones while building the modern Quebec nation; he considers this to have been hypocritical. But what he said Quebecers should be doing is to tell French Canadians that Quebec supports them and their quest for language rights even if Quebec has no intention to give any actual support. In other words, to give the appearance of caring. Which to me is what would be hypocritical.

We've had here before people criticizing Quebec for the absence of English on road signs. Even though road signs in Quebec are largely pictographic and adding some English on them would not improve the life of anyone. But somehow, this is important, I guess because it "shows" anglophones that Quebec thinks about them and considers them an essential part of the society. Jambo is often calling upon you to "show" your love for Canadian identity and culture, and I'm not sure what would satisfy him.

But here's the thing: Anglo-Quebecers are not actually satisfied with empty wooing. I'm sure every premier has told the anglophone community that they are an important part of Quebec society, from which came a good part of our artists, writers and businesspeople, and that without them Quebec would not be the same, etc. But what anglophones want is actual measures, like for example reestablishing English as an official language. (Which I oppose because it would drastically change the nature of the society we're trying to build in Quebec. I favour offering government services to anglophones in English, but not declaring the language official.) As for francophones outside Quebec, they're definitely meeker than Anglo-Quebecers, but there's some evidence that the road signs you're describing is not quite enough even for them.
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Old 10-01-2015, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,960 posts, read 27,383,424 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post
As for francophones outside Quebec, they're definitely meeker than Anglo-Quebecers, but there's some evidence that the road signs you're describing is not quite enough even for them.
I've actually been *there* when francophones outside Quebec have been demanding stuff, and heard as a counter-argument (more than once), "But you guys have stop signs that STOP/ARRÊT" here and the freedom to put up commercial signs only in French if you want. Anglos in Quebec don't even have that! You're never satisfied!"
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Old 10-01-2015, 04:28 PM
 
735 posts, read 854,646 times
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Frenchmen over in Europe got used to being spanked by brits and germans on a regular basis

Its in the natural order of things

They then fall back on their culture and feelings and stuff lol

Sounds familiar ?
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Old 10-01-2015, 09:37 PM
 
Location: Montreal
191 posts, read 133,656 times
Reputation: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post
But here's the thing: Anglo-Quebecers are not actually satisfied with empty wooing. I'm sure every premier has told the anglophone community that they are an important part of Quebec society, from which came a good part of our artists, writers and businesspeople, and that without them Quebec would not be the same, etc. But what anglophones want is actual measures, like for example reestablishing English as an official language. (Which I oppose because it would drastically change the nature of the society we're trying to build in Quebec. I favour offering government services to anglophones in English, but not declaring the language official.) As for francophones outside Quebec, they're definitely meeker than Anglo-Quebecers, but there's some evidence that the road signs you're describing is not quite enough even for them.
The PQ will say few things to reassure anglos every election. It's hard to take them seriously when they benefit from, if not directly encourage the false sentiments in the regions -that Montreal is totally English and that in many places you won't be able to get service in French. Simultaneously promising to francophones measures to strengthen French at the expense of English also doesn't help.

The Liberals on the other hand pretty much take the anglophones for granted. They don't actually promise them anything anyways in fear of alienating French voters. What's interesting is that the francophones in Sept-Iles I've spoken to also complain about the same thing -they get taken granted by the PQ, who do nothing for them. Sad, but kind of reassuring too that we're all in the same boat lol.
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Old 10-02-2015, 05:35 AM
 
Location: Brossard
66 posts, read 109,326 times
Reputation: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
There is also (for lack of a better term) a "legacy power relationship" that stems from the history. I suppose it is fading out over time, but it's still there. In historical terms, the "affirmation" of francophones wasn't that long ago.
Although I do feel that the history of the communities status still has a lot to do with why some anglophones just simply cannot adjust in certain situations,espiacally the elderly. I definitely don't feel as if it's a major issue at all anymore, espiacally considering many young anglophones these days are born from parents who weren't even politically aware
When Bill 101 was legislated.

In some ways Franco Ontarians have the right mentality for a minority but that's probably just because they never had the majority of the influence in Ontario's history but I know that they are stable or just slightly decreasing in their relative weight, not sure about actual population numbers though.

The difference with Anglos in Quebec is that there is constant sense of decline in the community which doesn't help our economic status in the province at all.even though the number of anglophones has increased in the last 2 Censuses, it still seems like there is a mentality that there is no use in trying to succeed in the province, but part of this has to do with some exclusion on the part of the francophone majority,which I never blame for not speaking English. But it seems like the rejuvenation of the francophone community in the past 40 years has lead to more insular groups of francophones who have probably never really seen an anglophone in their lives which is what causes the exclusion
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Old 10-02-2015, 05:36 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,278,474 times
Reputation: 7586
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonsereed View Post
Frenchmen over in Europe got used to being spanked by brits and germans on a regular basis

Its in the natural order of things

They then fall back on their culture and feelings and stuff lol

Sounds familiar ?
None sense.
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