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Old 09-10-2015, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Canada
5,712 posts, read 6,572,592 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Hey, thanks for posting that! Very interesting.

Even though I am going to play the devil's advocate, keep in mind I am largely in agreement that (English) Canada is arguably the world's most successful diverse society at the moment.

But just start with the question and answer from his conversation with the taxi driver:

Taxi driver: "The Turks … they come here but they don’t act Austrian. They come, and more and more they stay here, but they still don’t ever become like us. ... Is it the same in Canada?"

Journalist: "No."

I mean, sure many immigrants do identify as "Canadian", but what does that really mean? Does it really imply much more than adherence to a citzenship brand name?

It is quite true that most immigrants to Canada have a very positive view of Canada, and feel "Canadian", but it's also true that the bar to be "Canadian" for immigrants is extremely low. Lower than most any other country.

I can hear Mr. Hussain and some of you already getting ready to say: "Aha! Therein lies the genius of the Canadian model!".

Which may be true to a point.

But if the key to harmonious relations between immigrants and a host population is simply to let immigrants do whatever the hell they want, and for the host society to (often) adapt, then why doesn't everyone around the world simply do like Canada does?
I think that is where I may differ from just about everyone on here, in that for me the whole point of that space between one's ethnicity and Canada, is the wiggle room that allows that Austrian to be comfortably himself, as opposed to be ashamed of his name and his accent as was the case when I was a child. (Not that I personally was every ashamed but there were people who were.)

Our context, as people, is the lens through which we see things though and I sometimes struggle to separate my particular context from what appears to be happening. And I recognise that what happens here in Manitoba may be different than what happens in other parts of the country but with the immigrant flow we've had here, from Germany and the states of the former Soviet Union, the draw is that which allows them to be themselves and pretty much conduct themselves as they always would have in their country of origin, but without feeling they have to anglicise their names and hide their culture.

I don't think that newer immigrants realise how it was not that long ago. And in that context, I really enjoy Botti exercising his right to free speech.

That wiggle room, to me, is what defines Canada. I don't see that we need to have a definition like Oktoberfest or Old Glory. This nation is made up of many colours of different threads. I often get the impression in the Anglo-French wars here on this forum, that maybe the English Canadians and the French Canadians think that immigrants who are neither have to align themselves with one or the other? It's not uncommon for immigrants to have picked up bits and pieces of several languages on their journey here and I think that to their mind, the idea that language is anything other than a tool to communicate is somewhat bizarre.

Language and culture are not always the same. Here in Manitoba, immigrants who are neither English nor French in origin will default to the dominant language because they have to, in order to make a living. And yes, as I remember you mentioning before, along with that often comes some of the Anglo attitudes toward Quebec.

But that space which you see as empty, is the space that is uniquely Canadian, and which allows immigrants who are neither English nor French, to breath. And that breathing space in turn makes many immigrants extremely loyal to Canada. And that is what, in my opinion, the Austrian would have meant, when he said he could identify as Canadian.

The other way around, the way I understand you and you can correct me if I'm wrong, is a path that encourages nationalism based on a specific language/ethnicity. I understand that in the case of French Canadians that it is out of fear of being overrun by English Canada. And I will further say that it is no doubt because of the French presence in Canada and the Quiet Revolution there, that ultimately led to multiculturalism and the wiggle room I've referenced elsewhere in this post.

I'm speaking as someone who grew up in a culture that looked at us as 'lesser' Canadians because we weren't the 'norm' - which here, was English.
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Old 09-10-2015, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,744 posts, read 8,837,210 times
Reputation: 7352
Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
I think that is where I may differ from just about everyone on here, in that for me the whole point of that space between one's ethnicity and Canada, is the wiggle room that allows that Austrian to be comfortably himself, as opposed to be ashamed of his name and his accent as was the case when I was a child. (Not that I personally was every ashamed but there were people who were.)

Our context, as people, is the lens through which we see things though and I sometimes struggle to separate my particular context from what appears to be happening. And I recognise that what happens here in Manitoba may be different than what happens in other parts of the country but with the immigrant flow we've had here, from Germany and the states of the former Soviet Union, the draw is that which allows them to be themselves and pretty much conduct themselves as they always would have in their country of origin, but without feeling they have to anglicise their names and hide their culture.

I don't think that newer immigrants realise how it was not that long ago. And in that context, I really enjoy Botti exercising his right to free speech.

That wiggle room, to me, is what defines Canada. I don't see that we need to have a definition like Oktoberfest or Old Glory. This nation is made up of many colours of different threads. I often get the impression in the Anglo-French wars here on this forum, that maybe the English Canadians and the French Canadians think that immigrants who are neither have to align themselves with one or the other? It's not uncommon for immigrants to have picked up bits and pieces of several languages on their journey here and I think that to their mind, the idea that language is anything other than a tool to communicate is somewhat bizarre.

Language and culture are not always the same. Here in Manitoba, immigrants who are neither English nor French in origin will default to the dominant language because they have to, in order to make a living. And yes, as I remember you mentioning before, along with that often comes some of the Anglo attitudes toward Quebec.

But that space which you see as empty, is the space that is uniquely Canadian, and which allows immigrants who are neither English nor French, to breath. And that breathing space in turn makes many immigrants extremely loyal to Canada. And that is what, in my opinion, the Austrian would have meant, when he said he could identify as Canadian.

The other way around, the way I understand you and you can correct me if I'm wrong, is a path that encourages nationalism based on a specific language/ethnicity. I understand that in the case of French Canadians that it is out of fear of being overrun by English Canada. And I will further say that it is no doubt because of the French presence in Canada and the Quiet Revolution there, that ultimately led to multiculturalism and the wiggle room I've referenced elsewhere in this post.

I'm speaking as someone who grew up in a culture that looked at us as 'lesser' Canadians because we weren't the 'norm' - which here, was English.
Excellent post !
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Old 09-10-2015, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
22,023 posts, read 27,508,798 times
Reputation: 8628
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
Those are typically new supporters who are trying to overcompensate for not being life long followers. New Soccer fans are the worst at this and do the same in the US. It seems like they think that putting down another sport elevates their new found love to a higher tier.

There is nothing wrong with Hockey remaining the dominant sport that brings people together in Canada. Why on earth would these people want it to be soccer? The Men's program is terrible and the Women's is under supported/funded and had a mediocre World Cup showing. Hockey on the other hand is what Canadians do better than anyone else and have cemented that further in recent years.

Its odd to me that people act this way too, but please be assured that life long fans of these outsider sports like soccer are not the ones beating their chest. Those fans appreciate athletes no matter what they play.
Oh, I know all soccer fans aren't like that. I am soccer fan myself - it's the sport I foliow the most aside from hockey those days.

As for cocky soccer fans in the U.S., well down there there is a lot of give and take, especially between NFL fans and soccer fans. Both sides dish it out.

In Canada, I don't sense that as much. Hockey fans by and large don't seem to see soccer as something threatening. Many are indifferent, but they're not as hostile as NFL fans who see it as a rival football code I suppose.
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Old 09-11-2015, 09:18 AM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,028,929 times
Reputation: 2662
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Oh, I know all soccer fans aren't like that. I am soccer fan myself - it's the sport I foliow the most aside from hockey those days.

As for cocky soccer fans in the U.S., well down there there is a lot of give and take, especially between NFL fans and soccer fans. Both sides dish it out.

In Canada, I don't sense that as much. Hockey fans by and large don't seem to see soccer as something threatening. Many are indifferent, but they're not as hostile as NFL fans who see it as a rival football code I suppose.
Yeah I know the type. "Soccer is for sissies, with their crying a moaning. Football is a mans sport" crowd. They typically say that until you convince them to come out onto the pitch and hit them with a "clean" slide tackle and then they are singing a different tune.

You do hear similar comments from hockey fans as well, especially during WC time. Otherwise it is just not on their radar as you mentioned.
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Old 09-11-2015, 06:38 PM
 
Location: toronto
2 posts, read 1,134 times
Reputation: 11
Montreal
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Old 09-14-2015, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Silver Spring, MD
741 posts, read 2,549,147 times
Reputation: 226
Honestly, none of them...

Toronto might come close in terms of traffic and highways, but really not close plus it's a better laid out city, a slightly cleaner smaller New York.

Vancouver.. other than being on the West coast it has more of a feel and look like Portland Oregon or Seattle Washington, which are NOTHING like L.A.

Montreal.. nope not even remotely close in terms of geography, culture, and attitudes, or looks.

That's the 3 main cities and every other main city is never going to be anywhere close to L.A. in Canada

That's my opinion and I am sticking to it.
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Old 09-14-2015, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,598 posts, read 11,205,606 times
Reputation: 3756
Quote:
Originally Posted by smakawhat View Post
Honestly, none of them...

Toronto might come close in terms of traffic and highways, but really not close plus it's a better laid out city, a slightly cleaner smaller New York.

Vancouver.. other than being on the West coast it has more of a feel and look like Portland Oregon or Seattle Washington, which are NOTHING like L.A.

Montreal.. nope not even remotely close in terms of geography, culture, and attitudes, or looks.

That's the 3 main cities and every other main city is never going to be anywhere close to L.A. in Canada

That's my opinion and I am sticking to it.
Speaking of highways - Toronto and L.A both share the top 3 busiest in N.A..

Toronto's 401 is the busiest and 427 is the third. The I-405 through L.A is second.
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Old 09-15-2015, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Seminole County, FL
9,856 posts, read 6,753,962 times
Reputation: 12448
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Speaking of highways - Toronto and L.A both share the top 3 busiest in N.A..

Toronto's 401 is the busiest and 427 is the third. The I-405 through L.A is second.
The 401 is just a result of poor planning...
I like to compare the highway layouts of Montreal versus Toronto:

Montreal CMA has approx 2 mil people less than Toronto, but yet has 5 major expressways running East-West and 4 major ones running North-South, with 4 bridges per shoreside.
Toronto, on the other hand, has 2 running East-West (unless you count the Gardiner as a third) and really only one way into the core (401.) A setup similar to Manhattan's FDR (I guess that's what they attempted to (and failed at) do with the Gardiner?) and Hudson Pkwy would do a LOT to alleviate traffic problems in that area.
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Old 09-15-2015, 05:00 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,598 posts, read 11,205,606 times
Reputation: 3756
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcenal352 View Post
The 401 is just a result of poor planning...
I like to compare the highway layouts of Montreal versus Toronto:

Montreal CMA has approx 2 mil people less than Toronto, but yet has 5 major expressways running East-West and 4 major ones running North-South, with 4 bridges per shoreside.
Toronto, on the other hand, has 2 running East-West (unless you count the Gardiner as a third) and really only one way into the core (401.) A setup similar to Manhattan's FDR (I guess that's what they attempted to (and failed at) do with the Gardiner?) and Hudson Pkwy would do a LOT to alleviate traffic problems in that area.
Can you name the highways in the Greater Toronto Area? I'd be interested to see which highways you account for. Here is a good start with the 400 series - 400, 401, 403, 404, 407, 409, 410 (soon to be 412 through Whitby) and 427 all run through the GTA that is 8 (minimum 3 lanes each way and 9 if you count the 412) alone for just the 400 series not including the DVP, Allen Expressway, Gardiner, Highway 7 and Ontario Highway 2 which are all highways so that Is minimum 13-14 in the GTA and i'm probably missing some (smaller one's on the outer parts of the GTA) so others feel free to add..

Did you say the 401 goes into the core? The 401 runs east west through Mississauga, Etobicoke, North York, Scarborough, Pickering, Ajax, Whitby etc.. It is quite aways from the 'core' and north of it.

I have no idea why you wouldn't count the Gardiner as a highway. In parts (between the 427 and Humber river is 10 lanes) and actually it and the DVP are the two major arterials that go into the DT core.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardiner_Expressway

Here's a link to the 400 series highways in Ontario most pass through the GTA at one point or the other and they are known for some design innovations and safety.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/400-series_highways

Part of the reason the 401, 427 are so busy is as I've mentioned before, Toronto boroughs and burbs are some of the most dense in the anglo world and its also a major trucking route between the U.S/Canada as the GTA accounts for more than half of Canada's manufactured goods.

As for Bridges - why would Toronto or the GTA have bridges like Montreal? Don't you think geography has more to do with it in that almost almost half the Montreal CMA lives on an island maybe? That is simply not the case in Toronto - why would we build large bridges when they aren't required?

Last edited by fusion2; 09-15-2015 at 05:53 PM..
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Old 09-15-2015, 05:20 PM
 
2,566 posts, read 2,198,625 times
Reputation: 1816
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcenal352 View Post
The 401 is just a result of poor planning...
I like to compare the highway layouts of Montreal versus Toronto:

Montreal CMA has approx 2 mil people less than Toronto, but yet has 5 major expressways running East-West and 4 major ones running North-South, with 4 bridges per shoreside.
Toronto, on the other hand, has 2 running East-West (unless you count the Gardiner as a third) and really only one way into the core (401.) A setup similar to Manhattan's FDR (I guess that's what they attempted to (and failed at) do with the Gardiner?) and Hudson Pkwy would do a LOT to alleviate traffic problems in that area.
Another armchair "city planner" telling others how to plan their cities from thousands of miles away. The NYC/Montreal comparison is just bizarre. Why would Toronto need either of those? Toronto's not located on some island that requires multiple bridge access. Where would you build a bridge in Toronto, to Center Island perhaps or Buffalo? Another bridge to nowhere in the making.
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