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Another armchair "city planner" telling others how to plan their cities from thousands of miles away. The NYC/Montreal comparison is just bizarre. Why would Toronto need either of those? Toronto's not located on some island that requires multiple bridge access. Where would you build a bridge in Toronto, to Center Island perhaps or Buffalo? Another bridge to nowhere in the making.
The comparison wasn't to compare bridges, but rather the efficiency of the highway systems in both cities versus Toronto. Montreal and NYC both have multiple major expressways that take you directly into the busiest districts, so that if one is backed up, you have multiple realistic alternatives. Toronto does not do this well at all.
As for armchair "city-planner," ironically, my job does consist of planning for major civil construction projects.
The comparison wasn't to compare bridges, but rather the efficiency of the highway systems in both cities versus Toronto. Montreal and NYC both have multiple major expressways that take you directly into the busiest districts, so that if one is backed up, you have multiple realistic alternatives. Toronto does not do this well at all.
As for armchair "city-planner," ironically, my job does consist of planning for major civil construction projects.
Oddly though you speak as such an authority yet you aren't very familiar with the highway system in Toronto at all, you shortchanged the number of large highways by more than half, you claimed that the 401 goes into the core when it is far north of the core, dismissed the Gardner Expressway as being a highway even though it is a major arterial and mentioning bridges in Montreal when there is absolutely no reason to bring this up whatsoever in relation to Toronto when the city and its geography are completely different and wouldn't require bridges.
Aside from that as a player in the planning of major civil construction projects, where exactly would you build highways in the GTA to make it more efficient? Its almost funny to hear someone say that the Toronto metro is lacking in highways.. I guess there's always a first lol.
Can you name the highways in the Greater Toronto Area? I'd be interested to see which highways you account for. Here is a good start with the 400 series - 400, 401, 403, 404, 407, 409, 410 (soon to be 412 through Whitby) and 427 all run through the GTA that is 8 (minimum 3 lanes each way and 9 if you count the 412) alone for just the 400 series not including the DVP, Allen Expressway, Gardiner, Highway 7 and Ontario Highway 2 which are all highways so that Is minimum 13-14 in the GTA and i'm probably missing some (smaller one's on the outer parts of the GTA) so others feel free to add..
Did you say the 401 goes into the core? The 401 runs east west through Mississauga, Etobicoke, North York, Scarborough, Pickering, Ajax, Whitby etc.. It is quite aways from the 'core' and north of it.
I have no idea why you wouldn't count the Gardiner as a highway. In parts (between the 427 and Humber river is 10 lanes) and actually it and the DVP are the two major arterials that go into the DT core.....
Here's a link to the 400 series highways in Ontario most pass through the GTA at one point or the other and they are known for some design innovations and safety.
Part of the reason the 401, 427 are so busy is as I've mentioned before, Toronto boroughs and burbs are some of the most dense in the anglo world and its also a major trucking route between the U.S/Canada as the GTA accounts for more than half of Canada's manufactured goods.
As for Bridges - why would Toronto or the GTA have bridges like Montreal? Don't you think geography has more to do with it in that almost almost half the Montreal CMA lives on an island maybe? That is simply not the case in Toronto - why would we build large bridges when they aren't required?
I said East-West Expressways. You have the 407, the 401, and the Gardiner. That's 3. I also discounted the Gardiner as a practical expressway due to how it ends at the Don Valley, hence forcing you up into the busiest section of the 401 in order to head back East, rather than continuing on East and dumping off on the 401 at Pickering. There is no alternative route out of the core through the South.
As for the 401 itself, I meant that it is really the only access point into the core, as in, coming from pretty much any direction, you HAVE to take it to get into the core, unless you live on the Eastern end of Mississauga.
And I didn't say Toronto should have bridges. I was commenting on the efficiency of Montreal's expressways. Montreal follows a simple grid-system: 4 relatively straight North-South expressways, and 5 East-West, with multiple connector expressways in between. There are multiple alternatives to get pretty much anywhere from any location. Now, if the infrastructure wasn't falling apart and crumbling, I'd give it extremely high praise...
This pretty much sums up my issues with the 401 in a nutshell:
Not Enough Alternates to the 401 There are practically no alternate routes to the 401 that will take you across Toronto in an east-west direction. There is the QEW and the Gardiner Expressway, but they go through the downtown core and are more jammed than the 401. There is also the 407 ETR, which is not as congested and runs more north of the city. There is only one problem with the 407 ETR: it’s a toll road. The toll rates aren’t even close to reasonable.
Aside from that as a player in the planning of major civil construction projects, where exactly would you build highways in the GTA to make it more efficient? Its almost funny to hear someone say that the Toronto metro is lacking in highways.. I guess there's always a first lol.
You can't. This is the result of a city with a core that grew up way too fast. Proper transportation planning (like how about an underground expressway cutting through the core?) would have helped a lot. Pretty much too late for that now.
Also, I said it is lacking in efficient East-West expressways. We're discussing the 401, here, which runs East-West. Your alternatives? A toll road a ways to the North, and the Gardiner, which, if traveling East, still forces you onto the major gridlocked sections of the 401.
I said East-West Expressways. You have the 407, the 401, and the Gardiner. That's 3. I also discounted the Gardiner as a practical expressway due to how it ends at the Don Valley, hence forcing you up into the busiest section of the 401 in order to head back East, rather than continuing on East and dumping off on the 401 at Pickering. There is no alternative route out of the core through the South.
This would be good point I suppose if most people travelling eastbound on the Gardner were headed to the eastern parts of the GTA but the fact is most people travelling EB along the Gardiner are going into the DT core!.. The rest I suspect would be getting off in East York on the DVP or further north of the 401 on the 404 in North York.. Its only those going to Scarborough and east of that from the core which would be forced to use the 401 - but again this is only one example of flow of many. With that said, it would be better to have another option for the Gardiner eastbound other than the DVP NB to 401 I suppose, though i'm just not sure how many people require that.. If you're headed to Montreal or the far eastern parts of the GTA it would be a better option though just not sure costs would warrant it given the traffic. I'd prefer investment of dollars on more PT tbh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcenal352
As for the 401 itself, I meant that it is really the only access point into the core, as in, coming from pretty much any direction, you HAVE to take it to get into the core, unless you live on the Eastern end of Mississauga.
Not really - this is where your lack of experience with traffic flow in the metro is coming through! .. You can do the QEW Eb to the Gardiner directly into the core.. My folks live in the heart of Mississauga, if I was going DT I would take Hurontario SB to the QEW EB to the Gardiner EB into the core. If you are coming from the northwest you could do the 427 southbound to the Gardiner EB and again directly into the core.. Coming from the northeast you could go along the 404 travelling south and take the DVP south and again directly into the core.. Don't forget the Allen Expressway is used to get to midtown along with the DVP and 427.. This is just speaking to the core.. The GTA is a lot more than just Old Toronto.. in Mississauga you've got the 407 along with the QEW and 403 going East/West (though there isn't a notable highway going north south unless you are talking Brampton that has the 410..
The 401 is without a doubt the primary east/west highway that goes from one end of the GTA to the other, that is for sure i'm just not sure how feasible it would be to have another large scale highway going east/west on top of the Gardiner and 407.. I'm more excited about the Eglinton Crosstown taking people out of their cars and putting them on PT though a full scale Subway along Eglinton would have been better - the Crosstown will be miles better than busses!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcenal352
And I didn't say Toronto should have bridges
Well i'm glad you cleared that up - it was just odd you'd mention it in the context of a comparison to Toronto which simply wouldn't need such bridges.. Otherwise you raise some decent points but I still see that you are an outsider not familiar with the travel patterns/options available for most people who are locals familiar with the ins and outs of driving in the metro and understanding the best routes to take to get from A to B.
You can't. This is the result of a city with a core that grew up way too fast. Proper transportation planning (like how about an underground expressway cutting through the core?) would have helped a lot. Pretty much too late for that now.
Also, reading comprehension is your friend: I said it is lacking in efficient East-West expressways. We're discussing the 401, here, which runs East-West. Your alternatives? A toll road a ways to the North, and the Gardiner, which, if traveling East, still forces you onto the major gridlocked sections of the 401.
You're relating travelling from just a singular focus which is essentially going EB from the DT core to the eastern parts of the GTA without accounting for the fact that the GTA is a huge metro area and a lot of people don't do that.. As a matter of fact, if you live in Toronto why would you even touch a highway going from the DT core to Scarborough when you'd take the subway!
I'll give you an example - I lived DT and work at the airport.. The best way to get there from where I lived smack dab in the DT core was the Gardiner Expressway.. I took that WB to the 427 and I was at work - I didn't touch the 401 at all and it was exactly the same travelling EB going home.. Its the same thing if you live and work north of the 401 - you probably be better off taking the 407 and not even touch the 401.. If I worked at the Airport and lived in Scarborough, Pickering, Ajax, Whitby or was going to Montreal - I'd simply take the 401.
Its the same thing if you lived south of the 401 anywhere west of the DT core and worked DT - you'd probably be better off using the Gardiner than even touching the 401.. The only thing i'll give you is going EB coming from DT and going to Scarborough the eastern parts of the GTA or in reverse - than yes the 401 would be your only option using the DVP.. However, if you are going EB and north of the 401 again 407 is probably your friend using other north south arterials.
The thing with you is, you are only relating your experiences as someone travelling east from the west going to say Montreal as opposed to a local who understands the city.. I'm not going to defend Toronto's traffic situation - its pretty congested and clearly the answer is more Rapid Transit imo.
The thing with you is, you are only relating your experiences as someone travelling east from the west going to say Montreal as opposed to a local who understands the city.. I'm not going to defend Toronto's traffic situation - its pretty congested and clearly the answer is more Rapid Transit imo.
Yes, I am... And I must say, the highway system in Toronto has to be one of the most frustrating I've experienced, along with the NJ Turnpike in the Philly area. I have family in parts of Montreal and Toronto (Repentigny and Candiac, North York and Brampton respectively) and as such base my opinion on my experiences traveling to each locale.
Yes, I am... And I must say, the highway system in Toronto has to be one of the most frustrating I've experienced, along with the NJ Turnpike in the Philly area. I have family in parts of Montreal and Toronto (Repentigny and Candiac, North York and Brampton respectively) and as such base my opinion on my experiences traveling to each locale.
Fair enough though i'm really not understanding why you'd be travelling by car from the DT core of Toronto EB to Montreal unless you are specifically going to the DT core for a reason..
For example say you are coming from Buffalo along the QEW - why wouldn't you just take the 403 exit from the QEW and head north a bit and than EB along that arterial to the 401 and than just straight on EB all the way essentially to Montreal?
If you're coming from Detroit/Windsor than again you'd just take the 401 EB all the way to essentially Montreal.. The only reason you'd take the Gardiner EB into the core and than NB on the DVP to the 401 EB would be because you are specifically going to the DT core. Nobody in their right mind in the GTA would travel EB from the west along the Gardiner into the core while bypassing the DT core altogether in transit just to go north on the DVP to get EB on the 401 - that makes zero sense and doing that i'd take a loaded pistol in my car - no native would do that.. If you need help in the future by all means let me know it sounds like you do
Seriously though, if you do go to DT Toronto and than have to go to Montreal and its not between 2100-0600 than let me know, I know better routes for you to take than the Gardiner EB to DVP NB to 401 EB which = nightmare.
Yes, I am... And I must say, the highway system in Toronto has to be one of the most frustrating I've experienced, along with the NJ Turnpike in the Philly area. I have family in parts of Montreal and Toronto (Repentigny and Candiac, North York and Brampton respectively) and as such base my opinion on my experiences traveling to each locale.
Then you clearly haven't experienced the daily commuting nightmare in Boston along I-95, or the 3-hour long rush hour drives in Istanbul or Shanghai. Within the North America context, Ontario's 400-series highway system is probably one of the most comprehensive and well-maintained regional road system on this continent.
I'm really glad people like you don't live in Toronto. Toronto City Council is currently laying out plans to completely retire Gardner Express and convert the downtown section to mixed-use pedestrian and vehicle boulevard with a new Waterfront LRT, and there is overwhelming support among residents to take down Gardiner altogether and create pedestrian-only streets. I'd be more than happy to take my electric Regional Express Rail, the new streetcars, and an efficient public transit system over another 16-lane monstrosity freeway cutting across the city. Thanks but no thanks, you can keep your freeways in Florida or whatever suburbia you are from.
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