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Old 09-04-2015, 07:55 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,946 posts, read 27,348,673 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post


This is really your opinion though Botti - not all of us agree that Toronto lacks an 'identity' - the city is an amalgam of identities - there isn't a prevailing identity...
But that's precisely his point: that amalgam of identities, while interesting, isn't a Toronto identity. All of those identities tend to come from somewhere else, and a number of other places have a fairly similar mix. Or at least as varied a mix.

That amalgam of identities hasn't fused together in order to form something that one might truly call a Toronto identity. I assume that it will eventually, though it seems to be taking a longer time than such evolutions have taken in other cities.
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Old 09-05-2015, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,139,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
But that's precisely his point: that amalgam of identities, while interesting, isn't a Toronto identity. All of those identities tend to come from somewhere else, and a number of other places have a fairly similar mix. Or at least as varied a mix.

That amalgam of identities hasn't fused together in order to form something that one might truly call a Toronto identity. I assume that it will eventually, though it seems to be taking a longer time than such evolutions have taken in other cities.
All I can say is if you say so.. lol seriously this just sounds so ridiculous and detached from the city if you asked me.. I wouldn't expect an outsider to understand nor have any inclination to convince otherwise. Most cities that bear witness to foreign immigration undergo a constant evolution and the variety is always challenging the status quo that is an 'identity' - I wish people would stop talking about a city as though its the psychological profile of an individual.

Last edited by fusion2; 09-05-2015 at 03:10 PM..
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Old 09-05-2015, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,139,702 times
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As a Torontonian, instead of focussing on having a famous sandwich bringing all Torontonians closer together, I find other things far more important..

This article to me represents more of what is important for Toronto
Tokyo, London hold lessons for Greater Toronto Area as it grows into a 'megacity' | Metro News

As I've mentioned before, in about 2 decades Toronto will become Canada's first megacity.. This represents challenges for any city and i'm more concerned about infrastructure, transit and ensuring that the middle class is strong and that there isn't an ever increasing division between the have's and the have nots.. Toronto metro has consistently taken in about 40 percent of all immigrants to Canada and most cities have not had this challenge where they take in such a disproportionately large number of a nations immigrants (certainly not in Canada).. I'd like to see if there is another large global first world city taking in as many on a per cap basis in modern times.. Might be challenging to find that. Perhaps London and NYC but these cities have a stronger and more important history than Toronto.

60 years ago Toronto wasn't even the largest or most important city in Canada - in 2015 it is and in 20 years it'll be a megacity with megacity challenges.. Excuse us while we focus on more important and dynamic things than a sandwich or poutine. If these things are important to some, than by all means become a Chinese or Indian version of Drake and represent!

Last edited by fusion2; 09-05-2015 at 10:28 PM..
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Old 09-05-2015, 11:08 PM
 
Location: State of Grace
1,582 posts, read 1,137,722 times
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None.
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Old 09-08-2015, 07:57 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,946 posts, read 27,348,673 times
Reputation: 8603
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
All I can say is if you say so.. lol seriously this just sounds so ridiculous and detached from the city if you asked me.. I wouldn't expect an outsider to understand nor have any inclination to convince otherwise. Most cities that bear witness to foreign immigration undergo a constant evolution and the variety is always challenging the status quo that is an 'identity' - I wish people would stop talking about a city as though its the psychological profile of an individual.
It's surprising that someone as well-travelled as you are doesn't see at least some of the things that I and many others see.
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Old 09-08-2015, 07:59 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,946 posts, read 27,348,673 times
Reputation: 8603
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
As a Torontonian, instead of focussing on having a famous sandwich bringing all Torontonians closer together, I find other things far more important..

This article to me represents more of what is important for Toronto
Tokyo, London hold lessons for Greater Toronto Area as it grows into a 'megacity' | Metro News

As I've mentioned before, in about 2 decades Toronto will become Canada's first megacity.. This represents challenges for any city and i'm more concerned about infrastructure, transit and ensuring that the middle class is strong and that there isn't an ever increasing division between the have's and the have nots.. Toronto metro has consistently taken in about 40 percent of all immigrants to Canada and most cities have not had this challenge where they take in such a disproportionately large number of a nations immigrants (certainly not in Canada).. I'd like to see if there is another large global first world city taking in as many on a per cap basis in modern times.. Might be challenging to find that. Perhaps London and NYC but these cities have a stronger and more important history than Toronto.

60 years ago Toronto wasn't even the largest or most important city in Canada - in 2015 it is and in 20 years it'll be a megacity with megacity challenges.. Excuse us while we focus on more important and dynamic things than a sandwich or poutine. If these things are important to some, than by all means become a Chinese or Indian version of Drake and represent!
I don't buy for a minute that all Torontonians are sooooooo busy with all of these (compared to the denizens of any other city) that there isn't time - if they so desired - to build a stronger cultural identity.

Such things tend to happen naturally, almost by osmosis anyway. Provided there is a fertile ground for them.
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Old 09-08-2015, 08:10 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,139,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
It's surprising that someone as well-travelled as you are doesn't see at least some of the things that I and many others see.
I'm surprised you're surprised by my comments AJ.. The populace of Toronto has been for the last 50-60 reinvented more so than any city in the first world that I can think of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I don't buy for a minute that all Torontonians are sooooooo busy with all of these (compared to the denizens of any other city) that there isn't time - if they so desired - to build a stronger cultural identity.

Such things tend to happen naturally, almost by osmosis anyway. Provided there is a fertile ground for them.
What type of argument are you making here AJ... I really don't get it.. I don't mean to be disrespectful but you don't live in Toronto and from what I know you never have.. Some people who have lived here for a few years have agreed that the city doesn't have an 'identity' - well that is their opinion but that is some people..

Is there as cohesive an 'identity' throughout the city as more homogenous one's well - no there isn't but the bottom line is Toronto has received more immigrants from around the world in as short a period of time and in huge numbers relative to its population than any I can think of.. That would be enough to turn any city upside down.. I also think the native culture that was Toronto before this was a more reserved people so that combination leaves you with a mish mash..

Toronto is and has been ever since I've lived here (which is all my life) been a city of transformation.. Either the people coming and going or even the urban landscape itself.. There are communities and neighbourhoods with identities more so than one solid cohesive one and you know what - that is OK... Is there greater fusion and integration of various cultures - sure there is but they also don't buy into having to have this sort of pan Toronto 'identity' that you throw around as something that is 'natural' through osmosis (whatever the heck that is quite frankly).. People here are encouraged to be proud of where they came from and we all share our cultures and identities with one another.. Perhaps that is our 'identity' - you don't have to sell where you came from or who you are to fit in to some across the board city 'identity' !!

Toronto isn't a city for everyone.. If you don't like change and you don't like people with different views, customs, beliefs, values coming together in one place but with one caveat - you must respect differences this is simply not the place for you.. I don't really think Toronto or its citizens particularly care about developing one pan city identity AJ - that is just not Toronto and I don't think it ever will be..

As I said the biggest challenge for Toronto like many cities is a bigger gap between the haves and the have nots.. You still have the anglo elite running the show here and it will take time for other communities to get a stronger foothold.. Its happening but its not something that is overnight - this is a bigger struggle for Toronto I think as opposed to some sort of 'identity'

Last edited by fusion2; 09-08-2015 at 08:26 AM..
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Old 09-08-2015, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,946 posts, read 27,348,673 times
Reputation: 8603
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I'm surprised you're surprised by my comments AJ.. The populace of Toronto has been for the last 50-60 reinvented more so than any city in the first world that I can think of.



What type of argument are you making here AJ... I really don't get it.. I don't mean to be disrespectful but you don't live in Toronto and from what I know you never have.. Some people who have lived here for a few years have agreed that the city doesn't have an 'identity' - well that is their opinion but that is some people..

Is there as cohesive an 'identity' throughout the city as more homogenous one's well - no there isn't but the bottom line is Toronto has received more immigrants from around the world in as short a period of time and in huge numbers relative to its population than any I can think of.. That would be enough to turn any city upside down.. I also think the native culture that was Toronto before this was a more reserved people so that combination leaves you with a mish mash..

Toronto is and has been ever since I've lived here (which is all my life) been a city of transformation.. Either the people coming and going or even the urban landscape itself.. There are communities and neighbourhoods with identities more so than one solid cohesive one and you know what - that is OK... Is there greater fusion and integration of various cultures - sure there is but they also don't buy into having to have this sort of pan Toronto 'identity' that you throw around as something that is 'natural' through osmosis (whatever the heck that is quite frankly).. People here are encouraged to be proud of where they came from and we all share our cultures and identities with one another.. Perhaps that is our 'identity' - you don't have to sell where you came from or who you are to fit in to some across the board city 'identity' !!

Toronto isn't a city for everyone.. If you don't like change and you don't like people with different views, customs, beliefs, values coming together in one place but with one caveat - you must respect differences this is simply not the place for you.. I don't really think Toronto or its citizens particularly care about developing one pan city identity AJ - that is just not Toronto and I don't think it ever will be..

As I said the biggest challenge for Toronto like many cities is a bigger gap between the haves and the have nots.. You still have the anglo elite running the show here and it will take time for other communities to get a stronger foothold.. Its happening but its not something that is overnight - this is a bigger struggle for Toronto I think as opposed to some sort of 'identity'
Hey, I like Toronto. Lots of exciting things going on there. But the unique identity and character thing (normally fairly typical of cities of its size and role) is not something I really feel that strongly when I am there.

Your city has lots of things going for it. Just not that one IMO - not yet anyway.

And I don't think it's just because you guys are simpy busier than everyone else.
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Old 09-08-2015, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,139,702 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Hey, I like Toronto. Lots of exciting things going on there. But the unique identity and character thing (normally fairly typical of cities of its size and role) is not something I really feel that strongly when I am there.

Your city has lots of things going for it. Just not that one IMO - not yet anyway.

And I don't think it's just because you guys are simpy busier than everyone else.
I think the 'unique' identity thing is overplayed.. It can also sort of unhinge the idea of various people that are different being able to freely express 'different' I suppose.. Look AJ, I get what you're saying but at the end of the day I sort of just don't really feel the need to trumpet a pan Toronto uniqueness. I suppose for me, the idea of a bunch of different ppl being allowed to either integrate and assimilate by their own volition is more important than pressing this sort of forced identity.. On the other hand, for those that do want to integrate into our society, we need to embrace 'different' something that is a challenge for any city and Toronto is no different - there are still closed minds here.

With that said I would agree, Toronto isn't a city you can easily put your finger on in terms of getting a strong identity but i'm not sure this is something we should be struggling to change - do you? As I mentioned, should we force a refugee from Sri Lanka or Syria or an immigrant from China or India to mandatorily join the what is it - monarch league of Canada or something and brand them with a Union Jack and eat fish and chippies or peameal bacon sandwiches and sing god save the queen in the streets lol...

Will Toronto gain that ever elusive 'identity' - I don't know AJ but I think there are more important issues for us to deal with in the city.. I also didn't mean we're 'busier' than anyone else just that in the Canadian context we have bigger issues involving growth, infrastructure and transportation.. The city is growing and great will become the first megacity in the country - wonderful but what are we going to do to house all these people, provide good jobs for them and ensure they can get from their place of residence to work in a timely fashion... That is what I meant by more important things than an 'identity' - something tells me though, that if people ever want Toronto to have this strong identity across the board they will always be disappointed - I think Toronto will always be a place with a bunch of identities - and that is OK.

Last edited by fusion2; 09-08-2015 at 11:11 AM..
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Old 09-08-2015, 11:13 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,946 posts, read 27,348,673 times
Reputation: 8603
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I think the 'unique' identity thing is overplayed.. It can also sort of unhinge the idea of various people that are different being able to freely express 'different' I suppose.. Look AJ, I get what you're saying but at the end of the day I sort of just don't really feel the need to trumpet a pan Toronto uniqueness. I suppose for me, the idea of a bunch of different ppl being allowed to either integrate and assimilate by their own volition is more important than pressing this sort of forced identity.. On the other hand, for those that do want to integrate into our society, we need to embrace 'different' something that is a challenge for any city and Toronto is no different - there are still closed minds here.

With that said I would agree, Toronto isn't a city you can easily put your finger on in terms of getting a strong identity but i'm not sure this is something we should be struggling to change - do you? As I mentioned, should we force a refugee from Sri Lanka or Syria or an immigrant from China or India to mandatorily join the what is it - monarch league of Canada or something and brand them with a Union Jack and eat fish and chippies or peameal bacon sandwiches and sing god save the queen in the streets lol...

Will Toronto gain that ever elusive 'identity' - I don't know AJ but I think there are more important issues for us to deal with in the city.. I also didn't mean we're 'busier' than anyone else just that in the Canadian context we have bigger issues involving growth, infrastructure and transportation.. The city is growing and great will become the first megacity in the country - wonderful but what are we going to do to house all these people, provide good jobs for them and ensure they can get from their place of residence to work in a timely fashion... That is what I meant by more important things than an 'identity' - something tells me though, that if people ever want Toronto to have this strong identity across the board they will always be disappointed - I think Toronto will always be a place with a bunch of identities - and that is OK.
I actually find the whole "e pluribus unum" thing in large diverse cities (New York, Sao Paulo, etc.) to be quite fascinating.

What's ironic is that although I find Toronto surprisingly wanting in this respect, on the streets Torontonians of different stripes arguably get along better than New Yorkers, Paulistas, etc.

In the other cities the populace can sometimes be fractious and feisty, but paradoxically they also seem to have a lot more common ground.
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