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Old 09-17-2015, 10:50 AM
 
Location: New York, NY
430 posts, read 676,675 times
Reputation: 618

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyyc View Post
By all means, Canada is way cheaper. Everyone should go there, that way when it comes time to retire I'll still get my CPP payments.
I am not really a mega-consumer, so we were never talking about which country was cheaper for buying a bunch of crap. Just that the taxes are the same or lower in Canada,* that the national debt is much lower in Canada,* and that the crime rate is much lower in Canada.

I'd posit that overall quality of life is higher in Canada, but that really depends on if you can handle the cold. I don't mind it nearly as much as humidity (even NYC is too humid for me!) but "your mileage may vary."


* Subject to change if Trudeau is elected PM in October.
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Old 09-17-2015, 11:03 AM
 
1,746 posts, read 4,634,187 times
Reputation: 1166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blimp View Post
Material wealth is higher in Canada except for the wealthy. Canada today has the highest median income in the world, and the U.S. is second.
I don't know why you are so militant.

Just move to Canada already and relax. There you can have a longer and richer life.

Just leave the US with all its problems and issues behind. Move to the promised land.
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Old 09-17-2015, 11:06 AM
 
Location: New York, NY
430 posts, read 676,675 times
Reputation: 618
Quote:
Originally Posted by movingwiththewind View Post
I don't know why you are so militant.

Just move to Canada already and relax. There you can have a longer and richer life.

Just leave the US with all its problems and issues behind. Move to the promised land.
Militant? You quoted two sentences that were devoid of any anger or emotion and plainly stated an objective, neutral fact. I'm relaxed enough, and am perplexed that you'd think I'm not. I dare say that you are the one coming across as a little bothered?

It may be that I am a trained legal writer, and thus write a little more assertively than the average person. If you're not used to my "style," I do apologize for it. I assure you that I'm not stirring your pot purposefully.
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Old 09-17-2015, 11:09 AM
 
1,746 posts, read 4,634,187 times
Reputation: 1166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blimp View Post
Militant? You quoted two sentences that were devoid of any anger or emotion and neutrally stated an objective fact devoid of controversy.

I'm very relaxed, and I'd dare say that you are coming across as a little bothered.
See? You responded to my post in a NY second! Which only proves my point.

There is no way, you're relaxed, as you are shooting your posts like from an automatic gun at anybody who dares not to completely agree and comply. No?

Or is it just your writing style?
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Old 09-17-2015, 11:09 AM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,008,159 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blimp View Post
I have always had some issues with that study. Of course I agree that the middle class in the US was hit the hardest during the recession, but the brackets that they are using to define middle class are somewhat odd. It is especially odd for a person as yourself who favours larger, urban, walkable (In other words expensive) cities to use this as a source.

From the article:

Median per capita income was $18,700 in the United States in 2010 (which translates to about $75,000 for a family of four after taxes), up 20 percent since 1980 but virtually unchanged since 2000, after adjusting for inflation. The same measure, by comparison, rose about 20 percent in Britain between 2000 and 2010 and 14 percent in the Netherlands. Median income also rose 20 percent in Canada between 2000 and 2010, to the equivalent of $18,700.

Where I live you would qualify for affordable housing if you made that salary (https://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyl...DUM/story.html)

Also..

By contrast, Americans at the 95th percentile of the distribution — with $58,600 in after-tax per capita income, not including capital gains — still make 20 percent more than their counterparts in Canada, 26 percent more than those in Britain and 50 percent more than those in the Netherlands. For these well-off families, the United States still has easily the world’s most prosperous major economy.

Sorry but in places like SF, NYC, Boston, DC, etc....that is firmly middle class.

So while I agree with the article and do not question the numbers, the question is how much less is the cost of living in places where the median income is representative of local salaries? So in other words it most likely takes alot less to live well in "flyover country" as you referred to it earlier.
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Old 09-17-2015, 11:22 AM
 
Location: New York, NY
430 posts, read 676,675 times
Reputation: 618
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
I have always had some issues with that study. Of course I agree that the middle class in the US was hit the hardest during the recession, but the brackets that they are using to define middle class are somewhat odd. It is especially odd for a person as yourself who favours larger, urban, walkable (In other words expensive) cities to use this as a source.

From the article:

Median per capita income was $18,700 in the United States in 2010 (which translates to about $75,000 for a family of four after taxes), up 20 percent since 1980 but virtually unchanged since 2000, after adjusting for inflation. The same measure, by comparison, rose about 20 percent in Britain between 2000 and 2010 and 14 percent in the Netherlands. Median income also rose 20 percent in Canada between 2000 and 2010, to the equivalent of $18,700.

Where I live you would qualify for affordable housing if you made that salary (https://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyl...DUM/story.html)

Also..

By contrast, Americans at the 95th percentile of the distribution — with $58,600 in after-tax per capita income, not including capital gains — still make 20 percent more than their counterparts in Canada, 26 percent more than those in Britain and 50 percent more than those in the Netherlands. For these well-off families, the United States still has easily the world’s most prosperous major economy.

Sorry but in places like SF, NYC, Boston, DC, etc....that is firmly middle class.

So while I agree with the article and do not question the numbers, the question is how much less is the cost of living in places where the median income is representative of local salaries? So in other words it most likely takes alot less to live well in "flyover country" as you referred to it earlier.
Hmmm. The median is used most prominently, so that's hardly a subjectively "odd" bracket to study. It's the exact middle person in each country studied. I think the "per capita" rather than "per household" figures throw some people off, as nearly half the population in both countries do not work. And you're of course right in that the median would be different in SF or Boston than in flyover country, but that would have to be a study of specific cities rather than entire countries.

I'm myself interested in places like Lethbridge, Alta., and Rapid City, S.D., which are very similar cities of about 80,000. I'd guess that the median person is a bit better off in Lethbridge, as per everything we've said.

I'm even more interested in larger cities like Calgary and Denver, which unlike Houston is perhaps more of a true equivalent in quality of life to Calgary... but has higher U.S. taxes than what we've discussed here about Texas, and more expensive houses to boot.
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Old 09-17-2015, 11:32 AM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,008,159 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blimp View Post
Hmmm. The median is used most prominently, so that's hardly a subjectively "odd" bracket to study. It's the exact middle person in each country studied. I think the "per capita" rather than "per household" figures throw some people off, as nearly half the population in both countries do not work. And you're of course right in that the median would be different in SF or Boston than in flyover country, but that would have to be a study of specific cities rather than entire countries.

I'm myself interested in places like Lethbridge, Alta., and Rapid City, S.D., which are very similar cities of about 80,000. I'd guess that the median person is a bit better off in Lethbridge, as per everything we've said.

I'm even more interested in larger cities like Calgary and Denver, which unlike Houston is perhaps more of a true equivalent in quality of life to Calgary... but has higher U.S. taxes than what we've discussed here about Texas, and more expensive houses to boot.
I have no issue with the study itself but more with what is considered "middle class". Are families or individuals in the 95th percentile truly wealthy as the study implies? or should many of them also be included in the middle class.

As far as comparing median to median, of course the numbers are accurate and the average middle person in Canada has seen their income grow significantly more rapidly than in the US. That is not surprising at all.
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Old 09-17-2015, 11:43 AM
 
Location: New York, NY
430 posts, read 676,675 times
Reputation: 618
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
I have no issue with the study itself but more with what is considered "middle class". Are families or individuals in the 95th percentile truly wealthy as the study implies? or should many of them also be included in the middle class.

As far as comparing median to median, of course the numbers are accurate and the average middle person in Canada has seen their income grow significantly more rapidly than in the US. That is not surprising at all.
By definition, 95th percentile can never be the "middle" class. Statistical integrity would normally demand that you take either the 50th percentile (median) or something like a 25th to 75th percentile range to find the middle of the data set. I do however agree that these percentile figures would be drastically different in Boston or Toronto than in the two countries overall. Here in NYC (or at least in Manhattan) it might be off by a factor of 2 or even 3.
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Old 09-17-2015, 02:59 PM
 
Location: Seattle-WA-USA
678 posts, read 663,519 times
Reputation: 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
The US is cheaper because it has 9 times the population. Simple as that. Outside NYC and SF, is Boston cheap? Is Los Angeles cheap? Is Seattle cheap? Rent in those cities is probably 50% more than Toronto/Vancouver and 100% more than Montreal. I wouldn't want to live in Chicago, Philadelphia or Washington DC due to the crime rates.

OK, let's talk about "equal lifestyle". My lifestyle is a highly walkable downtown life. I walk to everywhere, don't own a car and hardly even take transit because I rarely need it. My family doctor/dentist is about 700m away from home, office 8 minutes walk, 3 movie theatres within 10 minutes, grocery stores 10-15 minutes, a dozen bank branches, hundreds of restaurants and shops nearby, a large market place (St Lawrence), plenty of interesting events all year round, tennis courts, gyms, everything you can imagine. All this within walking distance, and quite safe (I took a long walk with friends for an hour and half until 11pm last night)

Let me know how much this kind of lifestyle will cost in the US and whether it will be easier on the wallet.

Yes, if one choose to live in a suburb 30 miles from a urban centre to own a suburban house with nothing but other people's houses with garages nearby, such as Mississauga or Brampton, it will be cheaper in the US near Houston or Philadelphia, but that kind of life isn't attractive, and I definitely didn't come to North America to endure that kind of boredom. To have more disposable income and being able to buy more isn't equivalent to better life.
Botti strikes back!

I keep repeating this too, but you are right. Day to day items in Canada are slightly more expensive (I just came back from vacation in Montreal), yes it's true (food, restaurants, gas, clothes, cigs, etc.) But rent in most desirable cities in the USA are way too expensive now more so than Van or TO.

I just visited my brother who lives in SF and seriously there are mattresses lined up on the sidewalks with homeless people and people sticking heroin needles in their arms in broad daylight. The city is so damn expensive it's not even funny.
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Old 09-17-2015, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Seattle-WA-USA
678 posts, read 663,519 times
Reputation: 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyyc View Post
For someone who travels as much as you do, this post is out of character. With the exception of San Francisco, New York, etc, of which there is no Canadian equivalent anyways, it is significantly cheaper to live in the U.S. and have an equal lifestyle.

The tax rates may be similar, but in the US there are major deductions to be had on the basis of home ownership or State taxation rates. It has been beaten about several times, but as someone who has lived and owned homes in both countries, the US is much easier on my pocket.
Like he said, if you live in a place like Texas or Arizona or Tennessee or something.
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