U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Canada
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-20-2015, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,950 posts, read 27,371,773 times
Reputation: 8607

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
This issue raised it's ugly little pug for the first time back when Sikh's demanded accommodation over the Turban for things such as joining the RCMP etc.

All manner of authoritative historical and professional experts were summarily ignored and they were accommodated in frenzy of typical Canadian bending at the waist.

Sikh scholars themselves were very adamant that the "tradition" of wearing the Turban stemmed from Sikh's predominance in the specialty of fabric dying.

The religious dictates of Sikhism dictate "they shall not cut their hair" and one can appreciate how going home in the evening after a day of working with your hair dangling into various dye vats could be a major PITA so it became the practice to use the irregular width, long strips of coloured fabric left from trimming the ends once a bolt had been rolled and use it to restrain their hair and beards from dragging through the vats.

Hence we now have the Sikh "traditional" but NOT religiously stipulated hair coverings shown being accommodated as members of the RCMP and incidentally, standing behind every candidate for high office today.

That was not really a big deal with the relatively benign implications of one traditional symbol of the Mountie hat being usurped by another traditional symbol; the Turban.

This is something entirely different as the Turban in no way exemplifies the male dominant repressive nature of designating the female as an object of overt desire to the extent it is incumbent upon the female to PROVE and DISPLAY her chastity to the satisfaction of males lest she be punished and scorned.

We should in no way endorse this medieval and backward human rights issue in the same way we would not allow men to marry multiple underage girls, regardless if it be their choice or not. We have a responsibility to stand rigidly on the issue of human rights to the extent of swimming against the current and making tough choices if needs be. Endorsing the subjugation of the female; regardless if it is a tradition of long standing or not should not be allowed.

We would act swiftly and without any hesitance to stamp out female genital mutilation for the very same reasons as this aberrant "cover your face lest men find you attractive" nonsense. Any religious belief that intrudes upon any aspect of human rights, be they stated or merely understood, should not be tolerated, regardless of the acolyte's desires.

The aspect of security and compliance with common-sense rules and laws of identity are just another reason why it should be a non-starter.
Merci.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-20-2015, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Canada
4,811 posts, read 4,445,290 times
Reputation: 3262
Good post Brusan.

I have talked to several muslims about the niqab, not about this particular case but about the niqab in general and where it is appropriate to take it off. Most would probably have sided with the women in this case but I have met a few that were against the niqab, and where quite clear it represents extreme forms of islam. I personally don't care what people wear out in public, but at places like airport security checks, citizenship ceremonies, government offices and in public schools the niqab should not be worn. IMO

This video was about something else but this person makes very good points. I wish more moderate muslim would speak out like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwhEaAsBI3A
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-20-2015, 09:48 AM
 
5,097 posts, read 2,490,397 times
Reputation: 4657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoisite View Post
"It seems that a woman wants to become a Canadian citizen, but before she will do that, she wants to change Canadian law....."

That about sums it up in a nutshell and I don't like it. I don't care what Canadian law it is that she or any other prospective new immigrants may want to change, if it's allowed it sets a bad precedent that makes me ask "Where will it end, how many other Canadian laws will new immigrants want to be changed to accomodate them before they'll condescend to become citizens?"

So, I hope when the appeal goes before the Supreme Court that the SC will put the kibosh on it in short order and make it plain that tried and true Canadian laws will not be changed for the whims of new immigrants.

I thought the reason why muslim women cover their faces in public is to not appear sexually attractive or bring unwanted attention to themselves. I feel that the young woman who is making this fuss about keeping her face covered for the citizenship oath and ceremony is a hypocrite. The reason she's a hypocrite is because she has been appearing in public and before the media with her eyes heavily made up with cosmetics and kohl to make her already striking doe-eyes appear more stunningly beautiful and beguiling. Seems to me that using cosmetics, trying to attract attention to her eyes and look more sexually attractive and beguiling that way is defeating the whole purpose of wearing the face covering. I hope the Supreme Court also takes note of that hypocrisy.

.
Maybe this issue needs to be on a ballot, because if Canadians are against it and the courts rule against the people, then something is wrong with the law.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-20-2015, 09:55 AM
 
5,097 posts, read 2,490,397 times
Reputation: 4657
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadian citizen View Post
To the OP...........

NEITHER the Liberals or the NDP are a "Government " at this time...........Perhaps you should actually READ what you have written, before you hit the button ?

And for the record, I reject the idea that in Canada, a person can "hide their face " and attempt to change our legal system to their warped view. Live in Canada, follow the laws that are in place.

Jim B.
Thanks for the correction ... I should have said that both NDP, and Liberal, political party leaders (potential governments after Oct. 19,2015) have stated that they have no objection to foreigners demanding that Canada change law to allow them to cover their face when taking the oath for citizenship.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-20-2015, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Canada
5,692 posts, read 6,542,363 times
Reputation: 8193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Well, our laws can and will change over time based on the views of a majority of Canadian citizens, which includes naturalized Canadian citizens who immigrated here.

But I agree there is something inordinate about wanting to change things before even becoming a citizen.
Do you see Canada as something set in, if not stone exactly, then something like stone a while back?

Earlier in the spring I had lunch with my two educated and modern-dressing sisters-in-law and one of them commented that Mennonites had more in common spiritually with Muslims then with secular Canadians. This had occurred to her while listening to some news show and so many of the thoughts and ideas put forward by whoever it was that she was watching, struck that familiar chord many of us grew up with.

What I think is that we North Americans are turning our backs on our common histories of making countries work fairly well on the basis of many different ethnic and religious ingredients. Mennonites, Jews, Germans and Eastern European immigrants were all once the unpopular group du jour.

And the first Mennonites here changed Canada before they moved by insisting that they be guaranteed their religious and linguiistic and educational freedom. And the fact that Mennonites were pacifists and didn't cover their faces didn't stop the haters. Chickens, my friend. In the west, we too had our reserves, although that fell by the wayside around the turn of the last century.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-20-2015, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,950 posts, read 27,371,773 times
Reputation: 8607
Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
Do you see Canada as something set in, if not stone exactly, then something like stone a while back?

.
No, not at all. I don't see how one might come to that conclusion based on the post of mine that was quoted.

Obviously we should and will evolve. But it's desirable for evolution to take place in a positive direction. Evolution supposes progress, not regression. Changes in society that lead to a greater acceptance of cultural and religious practices that favour the subjugation of women, for example, is not ''evolution'' to me.

I don't think I and others should be seen as dinosaurs because we (mildly TBQH) resist that type of crap. Quite the contrary.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-20-2015, 10:50 AM
 
5,097 posts, read 2,490,397 times
Reputation: 4657
Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
Do you see Canada as something set in, if not stone exactly, then something like stone a while back?

Earlier in the spring I had lunch with my two educated and modern-dressing sisters-in-law and one of them commented that Mennonites had more in common spiritually with Muslims then with secular Canadians. This had occurred to her while listening to some news show and so many of the thoughts and ideas put forward by whoever it was that she was watching, struck that familiar chord many of us grew up with.

What I think is that we North Americans are turning our backs on our common histories of making countries work fairly well on the basis of many different ethnic and religious ingredients. Mennonites, Jews, Germans and Eastern European immigrants were all once the unpopular group du jour.

And the first Mennonites here changed Canada before they moved by insisting that they be guaranteed their religious and linguiistic and educational freedom. And the fact that Mennonites were pacifists and didn't cover their faces didn't stop the haters. Chickens, my friend. In the west, we too had our reserves, although that fell by the wayside around the turn of the last century.
One of the basic beliefs of the Mennonite community is the avoidance of anything that represents "decorating" one's self. Make-up is not used by Mennonite women due to religious beliefs. Make-up is used by Muslim women and there does not seem to be any religious belief preventing Muslim women from using a lot of make-up. That is a very basic difference between the two religions. One discourages self-decoration, the other doesn't.

"Mennonites, Jews, Germans and Eastern European immigrants were all once the unpopular group du jour", and Christians were fed to the lions, but that doesn't mean that Canada should allow foreigners to dictate law in Canada, and it doesn't mean that women should be allowed to claim that they are covering their face for religious reasons when there is absolutely nothing in the Koran stating that women should cover their faces or entire bodies for any reason.

This foreigner is making a false claim when she states that she wants to cover her face for religious reasons. She cannot point to any religious doctrine that requires her to cover her face, and the courts have a responsibility to demand that proof rather than take her at her word.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-20-2015, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,149,109 times
Reputation: 3738
This may sound like a dumb question (and I agree with the sentiment of practically everyone in here btw just take the thing off when you're getting government photo idea or for crying out loud becoming a Canadian Citizen lol).. Anyway my question is, in these countries where women wear the Niqab and they get government photo I.D ie a passport etc are they allowed to wear it and cover their face? I really don't know so don't be rude when answering.

If its in your own time than by all means wear a darth vader mask but if you are getting a passport photo, a cop stops you or you're taking an oath - take it off!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-20-2015, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Canada
5,692 posts, read 6,542,363 times
Reputation: 8193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieneke View Post
One of the basic beliefs of the Mennonite community is the avoidance of anything that represents "decorating" one's self. Make-up is not used by Mennonite women due to religious beliefs. Make-up is used by Muslim women and there does not seem to be any religious belief preventing Muslim women from using a lot of make-up. That is a very basic difference between the two religions. One discourages self-decoration, the other doesn't.

"Mennonites, Jews, Germans and Eastern European immigrants were all once the unpopular group du jour", and Christians were fed to the lions, but that doesn't mean that Canada should allow foreigners to dictate law in Canada, and it doesn't mean that women should be allowed to claim that they are covering their face for religious reasons when there is absolutely nothing in the Koran stating that women should cover their faces or entire bodies for any reason.

This foreigner is making a false claim when she states that she wants to cover her face for religious reasons. She cannot point to any religious doctrine that requires her to cover her face, and the courts have a responsibility to demand that proof rather than take her at her word.
Let me go wash that makeup off my face before someone sees me.

Well, you would be quite wrong about Mennonites and makeup as a general rule for starters. And western countries change cultures over time, and they, in turn, add to it. And as I'm sure you know was pointed out in another thread, culture and religion are knotted together. Old Order Mennonites may indeed shun makeup and many other things as part of their particular rendition of Mennonite culture, but it is far from true among the Mennonite family. It is culture expressed religiously.

With your last sentence you seem to be saying by inference you would be completely fine with face covering if it were written on tablets of stone?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-20-2015, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Canada
5,692 posts, read 6,542,363 times
Reputation: 8193
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
This may sound like a dumb question (and I agree with the sentiment of practically everyone in here btw just take the thing off when you're getting government photo idea or for crying out loud becoming a Canadian Citizen lol).. Anyway my question is, in these countries where women wear the Niqab and they get government photo I.D ie a passport etc are they allowed to wear it and cover their face? I really don't know so don't be rude when answering.

If its in your own time than by all means wear a darth vader mask but if you are getting a passport photo, a cop stops you or you're taking an oath - take it off!
I would be interested in the answer to that too.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Canada
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top