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Old 09-30-2015, 03:54 PM
 
261 posts, read 202,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fubarbundy View Post
Not an academic paper, but did see this article...
I only read the quoted snippet, but the gist of it is that while Western Canadians might view Quebec as traditionally overly powerful and overly spoiled in Canada, in part due to prime ministers coming from there such as Pierre Trudeau and Jean Chrétien, a large number of Quebecers do not feel the decision makers in Canada have paid any attention to Quebec's national status (with the associated needs, which are different from other provinces') and feel just as alienated from the centre of decision in Canada as Albertans do, or at least would have before the conservative revolution.

I think this is an evidence, and it's exactly what Acajack (among others) has been saying over and over again around here. One may disagree that Quebec as a state has needs that other provinces don't have due to being home to a particular national group (some Canadians even disagree that Quebecers are a sociological nation; I'm not sure what they base this disagreement on), but at the very least we have to recognize that Quebecers feel that way.
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Old 09-30-2015, 04:59 PM
 
18,259 posts, read 10,360,166 times
Reputation: 13313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post
I only read the quoted snippet, but the gist of it is that while Western Canadians might view Quebec as traditionally overly powerful and overly spoiled in Canada, in part due to prime ministers coming from there such as Pierre Trudeau and Jean Chrétien, a large number of Quebecers do not feel the decision makers in Canada have paid any attention to Quebec's national status (with the associated needs, which are different from other provinces') and feel just as alienated from the centre of decision in Canada as Albertans do, or at least would have before the conservative revolution.

I think this is an evidence, and it's exactly what Acajack (among others) has been saying over and over again around here. One may disagree that Quebec as a state has needs that other provinces don't have due to being home to a particular national group (some Canadians even disagree that Quebecers are a sociological nation; I'm not sure what they base this disagreement on), but at the very least we have to recognize that Quebecers feel that way.
Now; what can the ROC do that would be sufficient to correct the disparity in thinking.....?

I believe I've asked this question before and listened to crickets.
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Old 09-30-2015, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,128,404 times
Reputation: 3738

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RKUfTb88Rs
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Old 09-30-2015, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,685 posts, read 6,531,390 times
Reputation: 8188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post
I only read the quoted snippet, but the gist of it is that while Western Canadians might view Quebec as traditionally overly powerful and overly spoiled in Canada, in part due to prime ministers coming from there such as Pierre Trudeau and Jean Chrétien, a large number of Quebecers do not feel the decision makers in Canada have paid any attention to Quebec's national status (with the associated needs, which are different from other provinces') and feel just as alienated from the centre of decision in Canada as Albertans do, or at least would have before the conservative revolution.

I think this is an evidence, and it's exactly what Acajack (among others) has been saying over and over again around here. One may disagree that Quebec as a state has needs that other provinces don't have due to being home to a particular national group (some Canadians even disagree that Quebecers are a sociological nation; I'm not sure what they base this disagreement on), but at the very least we have to recognize that Quebecers feel that way.
I'm not following you. Quebec isn't happy, the west feels hard done by, and somehow recognizing Quebec's feelings solves the problem or part of the problem?
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Old 09-30-2015, 07:46 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,320,303 times
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To make the discussion more grounded and less about ''emotions'' it's worth mentioning that most of Quebec's traditional demands for changes to the federation have not be addressed, much less met.

I know that this fact does not get much play in the rest of the country and that the widely held view is that Ottawa (and even individual Anglo-Canadians! ) have bent over backwards for Quebec, but a look at the history does not necessarily support this.

For example, the five demands of Robert Bourassa during the Meech saga were these:

- Quebec was recognized as a "distinct society" in Section 2 of the Constitution Act, 1867. This would operate as an interpretative clause;
- Most prospective constitutional amendments were now subject to s. 41 of the Constitution Act, 1982, which meant they required the approval of every province and the Federal government;
- Provincial powers with respect to immigration were increased;
- Provinces were granted the right for reasonable financial compensation if that province chose to opt out of any future federal programs in areas of exclusive provincial jurisdiction;
- The appointment of senators and Supreme Court justices, traditionally a prerogative of the Prime Minister, would be appointed from a selection of names provided by the specific province.

These have been pretty consistent over several decades and numerous Quebec governments.

Of these five, only the one with respect to immigration has been addressed to a reasonable degree.

Yes, there have been some other changes made at Quebec's request that are not related to these five demands.

But not really that many.
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Old 09-30-2015, 10:37 PM
 
261 posts, read 202,874 times
Reputation: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
I'm not following you. Quebec isn't happy, the west feels hard done by, and somehow recognizing Quebec's feelings solves the problem or part of the problem?
The West feels hard done by. Maybe I think we should do something to alleviate Western alienation, and maybe I don't. But if I say: "It's quite clear that the West does not have any legitimate complaints about how Canada is run. In fact, we've bent over backwards to accommodate their unreasonable and frankly childish requests. We've always been fair with them, treated them nicely, and have only received scorn in return. That they're still not happy is evidence of their culture of victimhood and that they're unwilling to discuss with us in good faith," will this help in any way?

The fact is, Western alienation exists. Maybe I personally think the westward move of political power in Canada should be resisted. But if I reject out of hand the very idea that Westerners may have legitimate complaints and just call them whiny children, I'm the one who's refusing to discuss in good faith. The same is true for Quebec.
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Old 10-01-2015, 12:08 AM
 
Location: Canada
5,685 posts, read 6,531,390 times
Reputation: 8188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post
The West feels hard done by. Maybe I think we should do something to alleviate Western alienation, and maybe I don't. But if I say: "It's quite clear that the West does not have any legitimate complaints about how Canada is run. In fact, we've bent over backwards to accommodate their unreasonable and frankly childish requests. We've always been fair with them, treated them nicely, and have only received scorn in return. That they're still not happy is evidence of their culture of victimhood and that they're unwilling to discuss with us in good faith," will this help in any way?

The fact is, Western alienation exists. Maybe I personally think the westward move of political power in Canada should be resisted. But if I reject out of hand the very idea that Westerners may have legitimate complaints and just call them whiny children, I'm the one who's refusing to discuss in good faith. The same is true for Quebec.
Okay, I understand that and that is a fair point. However, I have been under the impression wrt your first paragraph, that this would also be Quebec's attitude to the ROC.

So that would still take us to the place where everyone is angry for one reason or another and what is the solution to that?
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Old 10-01-2015, 06:18 AM
 
34,355 posts, read 41,427,648 times
Reputation: 29840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
To make the discussion more grounded and less about ''emotions'' it's worth mentioning that most of Quebec's traditional demands for changes to the federation have not be addressed, much less met.

I know that this fact does not get much play in the rest of the country and that the widely held view is that Ottawa (and even individual Anglo-Canadians! ) have bent over backwards for Quebec, but a look at the history does not necessarily support this.

For example, the five demands of Robert Bourassa during the Meech saga were these:

- Quebec was recognized as a "distinct society" in Section 2 of the Constitution Act, 1867. This would operate as an interpretative clause;
- Most prospective constitutional amendments were now subject to s. 41 of the Constitution Act, 1982, which meant they required the approval of every province and the Federal government;
- Provincial powers with respect to immigration were increased;
- Provinces were granted the right for reasonable financial compensation if that province chose to opt out of any future federal programs in areas of exclusive provincial jurisdiction;
- The appointment of senators and Supreme Court justices, traditionally a prerogative of the Prime Minister, would be appointed from a selection of names provided by the specific province.

These have been pretty consistent over several decades and numerous Quebec governments.

Of these five, only the one with respect to immigration has been addressed to a reasonable degree.

Yes, there have been some other changes made at Quebec's request that are not related to these five demands.

But not really that many.
What concessions from the ROC would make you (Quebecers) happy?.
What demands would you like to see met?

Last edited by jambo101; 10-01-2015 at 06:53 AM..
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Old 10-01-2015, 07:04 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,320,303 times
Reputation: 8601
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
What concessions from the ROC would make you (Quebecers) happy?.
What demands would you like to see met?
I am not (very) unhappy.

Perhaps a better question might be what changes to the federation I think could put the separatism issue to rest?
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Old 10-02-2015, 02:02 AM
 
34,355 posts, read 41,427,648 times
Reputation: 29840
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
What concessions from the ROC would make you (Quebecers) happy?.
What demands would you like to see met?
Perhaps a separatist could answer those questions.
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