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Old 10-21-2015, 12:18 AM
 
Location: Alberta, Canada
2,200 posts, read 1,766,740 times
Reputation: 2686

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
I like that idea too. But would two Albertans in a row fly?
Unlikely. The Tories would do well to put an Ontarian in as leader.

Why? Because one of the things that bugged the Laurentian Elites during the past ten years was that Prime Minister Harper was not one of them, and did not listen to them. An Ontarian or Quebecer works, a Westerner does not. Harper came from Alberta, but I have no doubt that the Ontario/Quebec Laurentian Elite intelligentsia would also hate and work against a PM candidate from Newfoundland, BC, or Manitoba.

Where have our Prime Ministers come from in the modern era? Let's see:

Justin Trudeau (L): Quebec
Stephen Harper (Con): Alberta
Paul Martin (L): Quebec
Jean Chretien (L): Quebec
Kim Campbell (PC): British Columbia (never elected, only held office just over 4 months)
Brian Mulroney (PC): Quebec
John Turner (L): (never elected, in power 2.5 months, never sat in Parliament)
Pierre Trudeau (L): Quebec
Joe Clark (PC): Alberta (in power 9 months)
Pierre Trudeau (L): Quebec
Lester Pearson (L): Ontario
John Diefenbaker (PC): Saskatchewan

So, you can see, JBG, out of our last 12 prime ministers in the last 60 years, 6 have come from Quebec, one from Ontario, and the rest (with the exception of Diefenbaker and Harper, both of whom saw full-length terms) have been inconsequential.

JBG, how would you feel if 6 of your last 12 presidents came from Ohio, and worked to advance Ohio's interests, no matter how the rest of the country feels? You'd probably feel cheated, right? Well, that's how the majority of Canadians, who didn't vote for Liberal Trudeau, feel now. (As I understand things, the majority of Canadians--60.5%--did not vote for Trudeau.) But we have yet another Quebec PM, who will pay attention to Quebec and ignore the rest of the country, except insofar as it advances Quebec's interests.

I would suggest that it is because the Laurentian Elites, whether from Ontario or Quebec, think people from outside Ontario and Quebec are substandard, that they are idiots, that they are children who need to be shown the way. At the very least, they are colonies to be exploited to the betterment of Ontario and Quebec. It is a very paternalistic, and insulting, way to look at things.

Just because I'm curious, Liberal supporters: When will the Liberal Party of Canada have a leader who does not come from Ontario or Quebec? Surely, there must be Newfoundlanders, or Nova Scotians, or Manitobans, or BCers who quallify. Why don't they run? Could it be that the Laurentian Elites won't let them?
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Old 10-21-2015, 06:09 AM
 
Location: Type 0.7 Kardashev
10,577 posts, read 7,309,264 times
Reputation: 37488
Heh.

Quote:
Even as a baby, great things were expected of Justin Trudeau, who has just been elected Canada’s prime minister, ending a decade of conservative rule.

Richard Nixon predicted Trudeau’s rise to high office in 1972 during a state visit to Ottawa, when the winner of Canada’s 2015 federal election was just four months old.

“Tonight we’ll dispense with the formalities. I’d like to toast the future prime minister of Canada, to Justin Pierre Trudeau,” said Nixon, who may have just been buttering up Trudeau’s father.
Justin Trudeau anointed by Richard Nixon - at four months old | World news | The Guardian
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Old 10-21-2015, 06:48 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,989 posts, read 27,469,615 times
Reputation: 8627
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Worked real well for triggering the FLQ crisis and the 1980 referendum. And I forgot Bill 101, I think the education bill, and the bill relating to signs in 1977.
I don't understand your point(s).
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Old 10-21-2015, 06:56 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,989 posts, read 27,469,615 times
Reputation: 8627
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post

JBG, how would you feel if 6 of your last 12 presidents came from Ohio, ?
A more accurate comparison would be if those 6 presidents all came from the South.
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Old 10-21-2015, 07:01 AM
 
Location: Montreal > Quebec > Canada
486 posts, read 431,248 times
Reputation: 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post
Just because I'm curious, Liberal supporters: When will the Liberal Party of Canada have a leader who does not come from Ontario or Quebec? Surely, there must be Newfoundlanders, or Nova Scotians, or Manitobans, or BCers who quallify. Why don't they run? Could it be that the Laurentian Elites won't let them?
The problem is that not many Newfoundlanders, Nova Scotians, BCers or Manitobans are bilingual, which is a big handicap if you want to be a party leader. It would mean they would have almost zero chances of winning seats in Quebec - would you vote for a politician who didn't speak your language?

For some reason the proportion of Ontarian politicians who are bilingual seems to be much higher - maybe due to proximity to Quebec? Many of their recent premiers speak quite good to excellent French, for example: Kathleen Wynne, Dalton McGuinty, Bob Rae, David Peterson. Can the same be said about any other province, except New Brunswick?
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Old 10-21-2015, 07:15 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,989 posts, read 27,469,615 times
Reputation: 8627
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post

JBG, how would you feel if 6 of your last 12 presidents came from Ohio, and worked to advance Ohio's interests, no matter how the rest of the country feels? You'd probably feel cheated, right? Well, that's how the majority of Canadians, who didn't vote for Liberal Trudeau, feel now. (As I understand things, the majority of Canadians--60.5%--did not vote for Trudeau.) But we have yet another Quebec PM, who will pay attention to Quebec and ignore the rest of the country, except insofar as it advances Quebec's interests.
(...)
At the very least, they are colonies to be exploited to the betterment of Ontario and Quebec. It is a very paternalistic, and insulting, way to look at things.

Just because I'm curious, Liberal supporters: When will the Liberal Party of Canada have a leader who does not come from Ontario or Quebec? Surely, there must be Newfoundlanders, or Nova Scotians, or Manitobans, or BCers who quallify. Why don't they run? Could it be that the Laurentian Elites won't let them?
I've been following politics since I was a kid, and I'd say that in my lifetime, the only PM from Quebec who might have overtly favoured Quebec was Brian Mulroney.

Neither Pierre Elliot Trudeau nor Jean Chrétien can be said to have pandered and poo-pooed to Quebec. In fact, their actions more often than not were diametrically opposed to the wishes of the Quebec governments of the day (regardless of whether they were PQ or Liberal* BTW). Yes, they did do stuff in Quebec - it's normal, it's second biggest province in the country - but to say that were the lap dogs of the provincial government in Quebec City is patently false.

Overall, I don't think you can say that having sons of Quebec Trudeau Sr. and Chrétien in power in Ottawa really was a positive thing for Quebec.

Mulroney of course is another story.

And I say this is a person who is the furthest thing from a Tory.

*Which is the source of the long-standing schism between the federal and Quebec Liberals. They are two different organizations with very few linkages between them. It's not unusual for the Quebec Liberal party brass to back a party other than the Ottawa Liberals in federal elections.
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Old 10-21-2015, 08:07 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,989 posts, read 27,469,615 times
Reputation: 8627
Quote:
Originally Posted by begratto View Post
The problem is that not many Newfoundlanders, Nova Scotians, BCers or Manitobans are bilingual, which is a big handicap if you want to be a party leader. It would mean they would have almost zero chances of winning seats in Quebec - would you vote for a politician who didn't speak your language?

For some reason the proportion of Ontarian politicians who are bilingual seems to be much higher - maybe due to proximity to Quebec? Many of their recent premiers speak quite good to excellent French, for example: Kathleen Wynne, Dalton McGuinty, Bob Rae, David Peterson. Can the same be said about any other province, except New Brunswick?
Bilingualism is such an obvious factor that I can't believe people don't at least see at least a partial explanation right there.

You are correct to point out that the political class in English Canada is producing more bilingual people. The mayor of Calgary, Naheed Nenshi, who some see as a future federal politician, also speaks passable French.

Being bilingual helps, but it's also about being able to connect with the people. Jack Layton spoke accented but fluent French, but was able to connect with francophones. Stephen Harper was never able to connect with francophones even though he spoke good French. Stéphane Dion spoke English at about the same level as Jean Chrétien did, but he was never able to connect with anglophones like Chrétien did.

Not even everyone from the Montreal area can pull this off (Dion was a francophone from Montreal for example, and Sheila Copps from Hamilton was bilingual and connected reasonably well with francophones). But the reality is that you are going to have more people from the Montreal (and Ottawa and Moncton) area who are able to pull this off.

None of this is really a "conspiracy" (in spite of what some might want to think). It's just the way things are.

Another point I was thinking about is that people in Quebec just tend to be more politicized than people in the rest of the country (with some exceptions of course). The "issues" are constantly debated here and it's not just the separatism vs. federalism issue. Having grown up in Anglo-Canada and still having a foothold there via many relatives and friends, the percentage of everyday conversations that revolve around "public issues" in Quebec is just much higher. Everything from the carrés rouges student movement (ever wonder why they could get 200,000 people to march in the streets?) to Bouchard-Taylor/reasonable accommodation to the kitchen sink gets debated up the ying-yang here on talk shows, radio shows, in the papers, around the pool, at the hockey rink, at Tim Hortons, etc.

Not saying they don't do it in the rest of the country. But they don't do it nearly as much.
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Old 10-21-2015, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Hougary, Texberta
8,607 posts, read 11,126,977 times
Reputation: 10344
I know it's out of character, but I'm not all doom and gloom yet. Let's give Msr. Trudeau an actual chance to lead. What I do know is that without clear, strong leadership Canada will readily re-dissolve back into the regional rumps of the 00's. We're most of the way there already.
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Old 10-21-2015, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Canada
5,710 posts, read 6,564,084 times
Reputation: 8233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I've been following politics since I was a kid, and I'd say that in my lifetime, the only PM from Quebec who might have overtly favoured Quebec was Brian Mulroney.

Neither Pierre Elliot Trudeau nor Jean Chrétien can be said to have pandered and poo-pooed to Quebec. In fact, their actions more often than not were diametrically opposed to the wishes of the Quebec governments of the day (regardless of whether they were PQ or Liberal* BTW). Yes, they did do stuff in Quebec - it's normal, it's second biggest province in the country - but to say that were the lap dogs of the provincial government in Quebec City is patently false.

Overall, I don't think you can say that having sons of Quebec Trudeau Sr. and Chrétien in power in Ottawa really was a positive thing for Quebec.

Mulroney of course is another story.

And I say this is a person who is the furthest thing from a Tory.

*Which is the source of the long-standing schism between the federal and Quebec Liberals. They are two different organizations with very few linkages between them. It's not unusual for the Quebec Liberal party brass to back a party other than the Ottawa Liberals in federal elections.
That's always been my impression and I've also followed politics since I was a kid. But Mulroney did favour Quebec. Worst PM Canada ever had.
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Old 10-21-2015, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Thornhill, Ontario
368 posts, read 302,980 times
Reputation: 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyyc View Post
I know it's out of character, but I'm not all doom and gloom yet. Let's give Msr. Trudeau an actual chance to lead. What I do know is that without clear, strong leadership Canada will readily re-dissolve back into the regional rumps of the 00's. We're most of the way there already.
I agree with you completely. I'm no fan of Justin Trudeau, however, if there is one thing I do not like it is political hyperbole that you tend to get from both sides of the political spectrum. Let's see what he does...
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