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People always say this but isn't almost racist or at least intolerant to suggest that a Toronto populated mostly with, say, WASPs, would be drab and boring? What's wrong with WASPs? Or Western Europeans?
What's fundamentally wrong with a city that's not like the United Nations?
Is Tokyo a drab and boring city because it's 99% Japanese with very few immigrants?
Change some of the variables around and see how it sounds if someone complains about Detroit being too black, Mexico City being too Hispanic, Tel Aviv too Jewish…
(Just being the devil's advocate BTW.)
Well its a good point.. Perhaps Toronto would have developed into something dynamic and had a better sense of place if it hadn't become a massive beneficiary of immigrants. That said, maybe it would have become another Buffalo which is just too small to be of International consequence.. In the end though, its hard to imagine it would have benefitted as greatly simply due to smaller population growth. I think at best it would be about half the size as it is now and would most certainly would not be as internationally connected.
Ultimately there is a place in the world for the Tokyo's and Mexico City's of course but there is also a place for the NYC's, London's and Toronto's too. I'm not really going to mess with Toronto's recipe for success with a what if scenario. Even as a Wasp myself and multiple generation Torontonian, I think you'd find that most Torontonians feel the same. Fact of the matter is, by 2036 the GTA will be almost 70 percent 'visible' minority so any hope of a Toronto being dominantly Wasp or dominantly western euro is gone with every passing decade. In Toronto's case, that boat left a long time ago and we are past the point of no return. Canada can have one city that is a massively pro-immigration metropolis. Nothing wrong with that and lots of countries have em. Lots don't lots do and some prefer living in a more homogenous place. They have a choice, others like lots of flavours and there is choice as well. Not really seeing this as a bad thing.
There are also benefits as well that go beyond 'business' as you say regardless how much that is a motivating factor. I met my partner who is Venezuelan and we've been together over 7 years now. I love this blending and I love him! There are lots of examples of us both straight and gay and it add a dynamic to human relationships that go beyond just the being who you are 'comfortable' and familiar with. It adds a bit of spice and volatility to the relationship but boy is it interesting..
Do you have something against multiculturalism and diversity?
In this finite world, moderate sustainable economic growth and a stable population is what we should be shooting for, not overcrowding and unbridled growth like in India or China....unless we want our rivers to smell like the Ganges on laundry day.
Good posts Acajack
Note AJ said Tokyo and Mexico City which are also among the largest in the world. Most of the largest in the world are actually places that don't have a really strong foreign born population. I think we have to be realistic about Toronto - its growth rate is much more sustainable than what is going on in India or China. The metro is growing by about 100-110K per year and won't be a megacity urban area (+ 10 million) until about 2041. I think Canada can handle having 1 plus 10 million urban area in its repertoire.
The fact that transit is inadequate for a metro its size has nothing to do with unsustainable growth, it has to do with political neglect.
I met my partner who is Venezuelan and we've been together over 7 years now. I love this blending and I love him! There are lots of examples of us both straight and gay and it add a dynamic to human relationships that go beyond just the being who you are 'comfortable' and familiar with. It adds a bit of spice and volatility to the relationship but boy is it interesting..
In my own opinion relationships and food are simlar in the sense sometimes when you add 2 different elements in to the mix that don't usually go together because they were not grown in the same region you get one hot new dish . My partner was not born in Canada. We were raised in different faiths and have very different perspectives on most things. We clash hugely in some areas, but complement and inspire each other greatly in other areas. It certainly keeps things interesting. There are people that fear the changes or diversity associated with "foreigner people / new immigrants" and others who embrace the opportunities and ideas that come with them. Both views have some merit as there are pros and cons to just about every situation, but I still see the glass as been more then 1/2 full on this topic as for me the pros far out way the cons.
The fallacy that some people are making here is using the term "Western European" (or "European" in general) synonymously with "White" or "WASP". Not every white person is culturally European.
Europeans have an established culture of their own that was developed over millennia.
The descendants of the European immigrants to North America have for the most part thrown away all the rich cultural traditions that characterize what we know as European culture. Their cultural hard drive basically crashed and they rebooted with an entirely new, bland, blank desktop. Americans are juuuust getting started on the process of creating a unique culture of their own, influenced by not only European culture but also Africa, Asia, Native culture, Jewish culture, Latino culture, etc. Canada is much further behind in this process, even if it was settled approximately at the same time.
"White-Canadian culture" is as insipid and bland in comparison to Europe as "Asian-Canadian culture" is insipid and bland in comparison to Asia. It's the mixing of all these subcultures in Canada that will create a strong cultural identity in the centuries to come. This process is only just starting.
It is impossible to create European culture in Canada unless we import millions of new European immigrants and encourage them to keep their culture. I am not opposed to that at all, btw. The "white people" in Canada lost touch with their European-ness generations ago.
The exodus from Montreal to Toronto was not about French Canadians. It was about anglophones leaving Montreal and Quebec to get away from the ''affirmation'' (for lack of a better term) of French Canadians.
For whatever reasons, French Canadians have never migrated to Toronto in appreciable numbers.
I never said the business exodus was about French Canadians. It was about MONEY. It wasn't about anglophones either. It was about businesses, particularly national and international head offices, who were afraid of the financial consequences of finding themselves and their assets in an independent Quebec.
French Canadian employees were not discriminated against. They were offered transfers to Toronto just like their Anglo co-workers. I was there. In my company my entire department was offered transfers (including interest free second mortgages as an inticement) except for the messenger and file clerk. The French Canadians were bilingual so language wasn't a problem. Those who chose not to go did so because of close family connections.
In my own opinion relationships and food are simlar in the sense sometimes when you add 2 different elements in to the mix that don't usually go together because they were not grown in the same region you get one hot new dish . My partner was not born in Canada. We were raised in different faiths and have very different perspectives on most things. We clash hugely in some areas, but complement and inspire each other greatly in other areas. It certainly keeps things interesting. There are people that fear the changes or diversity associated with "foreigner people / new immigrants" and others who embrace the opportunities and ideas that come with them. Both views have some merit as there are pros and cons to just about every situation, but I still see the glass as been more then 1/2 full on this topic as for me the pros far out way the cons.
I think we are very much aligned here KLM and very much a product of where we live and that isn't a bad thing at all. With respect to my relationship i'm not saying there weren't challenges early on. There were and often times we were left scratching our heads and saying, hmmm must be a cultural thing lol. The funny thing is, now we don't do that anymore. I know how he will react he knows how I will. I'm also FAR less reserved than I used to be and don't give a crap if people have an issue with the way we look in public. We also laugh and look at eachother like, oh you see that guy/girl give us the lookdown. We do the same thing back at em or start dancing lol.
Another thing about multiculturalism is cool is bringing people together. We work with this guy who wouldn't have been caught dead eating hot food. It took work but my Indonesian and Sri Lankan coworkers and I have broken him in and even though he turns various shades of red - he joins us for Hakka Fridays. This is a guy who lives in Guelph but we all get along famously and its experiences like this that bring people together and open themselves up to new experiences outside their 'comfort' zone.
So yes, there is more to this than just a 'business' arrangement or at least some great spinoff benefits that just go beyond what meets the eye to some people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands
Agreed. Immigration is always a business decision. Thankfully it's a business decision on both sides (recieving nation and person themselves) so it is not like anyone comes over on false pretenses.
More customers, larger talent pool for business to select from. Including many positions that are too "menial" in the eyes of the native born. The building of a new tax base should be viewed in not only the sense of income taxes, but also consumption taxes, property taxes, etc.....so I agree, excellent point.
I'm just a bit uncomfortable with this whole 'business' arrangement thing. I hope I can use my personal experiences as KLM is doing as well to show that there are human connections that occur ie relationships and friendships that go way way beyond just a business arrangement. It might be like that in the beginning for an immigrant family but it certainly isn't the be and all and end all of their experiences or doesn't have to be..
Anyway, the relationships and the friendships, they are extremely rewarding to those that are open to them and make for great conversations and great times spent together. It also opens one up to the world around them.. I would never have gone to Sri Lanka and Indonesia If not for my friends at work! These things bring us closer and work to improve upon that ever elusive more harmonious integration. This is just my reality in this day and age and losing my friends and my partner and these experiences would be absolutely devastating to me and to so many of us.
People like the OP would probably disown their son/daughter (but especially their daughter) for marrying the wrong type of foreigner. Racial bigotry runs deep in this country, regardless of what people think.
I actually read a study conducted some years back where they interviewed Canadian parents on how they would react to their adult children marrying someone of a different religion (and not necessarily a foreigner). B.C was the most tolerant, followed by Ontario and Atlantic Canada, with the Prairies right at the bottom.
Not surprisingly, Islam was the least favored religion in all regions.
More surprisingly, Hinduism, Buddhism and Judaism ranked only slighter better than Islam in the Prairies. Says a lot.
It's not that strange to choose to marry someone with similar beliefs. I wouldn't marry anyone who was not of my religion because it's important to me. It's not the ethnicity that matters to me. And if I had children, I'm sure I'd feel the same about them which is not to say that they wouldn't be free to make whatever choice they wanted to make.
I think in cases where religion is a cultural hang nail it's different.
The exodus from Montreal to Toronto was not about French Canadians. It was about anglophones leaving Montreal and Quebec to get away from the ''affirmation'' (for lack of a better term) of French Canadians.
.
Or to put it another way the Anglo exodus from Quebec was to escape an uncertain political future in Canada due to the separatists striving for a separate Quebec.The Anglos immigrated to other parts of Canada bringing their families their money and in many cases their jobs and companies with them.
AJ i cant believe that you think almost a million Anglos left Quebec because they all of a sudden decided they didnt like French Canadians.
Well its a good point.. Perhaps Toronto would have developed into something dynamic and had a better sense of place if it hadn't become a massive beneficiary of immigrants. That said, maybe it would have become another Buffalo which is just too small to be of International consequence.. In the end though, its hard to imagine it would have benefitted as greatly simply due to smaller population growth. I think at best it would be about half the size as it is now and would most certainly would not be as internationally connected.
Ultimately there is a place in the world for the Tokyo's and Mexico City's of course but there is also a place for the NYC's, London's and Toronto's too. I'm not really going to mess with Toronto's recipe for success with a what if scenario. Even as a Wasp myself and multiple generation Torontonian, I think you'd find that most Torontonians feel the same. Fact of the matter is, by 2036 the GTA will be almost 70 percent 'visible' minority so any hope of a Toronto being dominantly Wasp or dominantly western euro is gone with every passing decade. In Toronto's case, that boat left a long time ago and we are past the point of no return. Canada can have one city that is a massively pro-immigration metropolis. Nothing wrong with that and lots of countries have em. Lots don't lots do and some prefer living in a more homogenous place. They have a choice, others like lots of flavours and there is choice as well. Not really seeing this as a bad thing.
There are also benefits as well that go beyond 'business' as you say regardless how much that is a motivating factor. I met my partner who is Venezuelan and we've been together over 7 years now. I love this blending and I love him! There are lots of examples of us both straight and gay and it add a dynamic to human relationships that go beyond just the being who you are 'comfortable' and familiar with. It adds a bit of spice and volatility to the relationship but boy is it interesting..
Do you have something against multiculturalism and diversity?
You know me well enough to know that is a dumb question to ask of me
I never said the business exodus was about French Canadians. It was about MONEY. It wasn't about anglophones either. It was about businesses, particularly national and international head offices, who were afraid of the financial consequences of finding themselves and their assets in an independent Quebec.
French Canadian employees were not discriminated against. They were offered transfers to Toronto just like their Anglo co-workers. I was there. In my company my entire department was offered transfers (including interest free second mortgages as an inticement) except for the messenger and file clerk. The French Canadians were bilingual so language wasn't a problem. Those who chose not to go did so because of close family connections.
You said the migration of French Canadians to Toronto changed the character of the city. Not enough of them moved there to change the character of the city.
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Agree....
. My partner was not born in Canada. We were raised in different faiths and have very different perspectives on most things. We clash hugely in some areas, but complement and inspire each other greatly in other areas. It certainly keeps things interesting. There are people that fear the changes or diversity associated with "foreigner people / new immigrants" and others who embrace the opportunities and ideas that come with them. Both views have some merit as there are pros and cons to just about every situation, but I still see the glass as been more then 1/2 full on this topic as for me the pros far out way the cons.
