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Old 06-15-2016, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Toronto
6,754 posts, read 3,774,955 times
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I have a theory ... it is a strech and ikely inspired by too many tv/shows or movies. Even before the reports came out about the shotter being seen in the same night club hanging out numerous times there was more to why he choose this target. I find a lot of times when people significantly convey homophobia I honestly question if they are dealing with their own internal conflict. For example various religions are historically very homophobic, Islam is just one of them. If you are homosexual and grow up in a cultural and religion that teaches you that being homosexual is wrong/ bad/ evil and does not accept that fact that people are born hetero or homosexual then how messed up can that cause you to be? I question if the shooter was struggling with a sexual identity crisis among other mental health issues.

I was raised Catholic and had several male freinds in high school that came out as adults. I grew up at a time and in a religious school and social environment that was very homophobic. I could not even imagine how horrible it must have been like for these male freinds of mine fearing that if their peers, teachers, school priests and family knew their were homosexual that they would likely be at risk for constantly being verbally and physically harrased. Thankfully at least in this city and country understanding of LGBT has improved since then ( I am sure it still has a long way to go as well).

I personally still feel guilty in a way because as a teen I sort of had a feeling they were gay, but would have never brought it up as I honestly would have been terrified for them because I can say with certainty they would have been in serious danger of being physical assauted and bullied in my school or at home. But I would have wanted them to know that their sexuality would have made no difference in terms of our freindships. Anyone have kids in Catholic Schools in Canada right now? I am really curious how LGBT related topics are being addressed in the Catholic School system.
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Old 06-15-2016, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,666 posts, read 8,737,253 times
Reputation: 7273
Quote:
Originally Posted by klmrocks View Post
I have a theory ... it is a strech and ikely inspired by too many tv/shows or movies. Even before the reports came out about the shotter being seen in the same night club hanging out numerous times there was more to why he choose this target. I find a lot of times when people significantly convey homophobia I honestly question if they are dealing with their own internal conflict. For example various religions are historically very homophobic, Islam is just one of them. If you are homosexual and grow up in a cultural and religion that teaches you that being homosexual is wrong/ bad/ evil and does not accept that fact that people are born hetero or homosexual then how messed up can that cause you to be? I question if the shooter was struggling with a sexual identity crisis among other mental health issues.

I was raised Catholic and had several male freinds in high school that came out as adults. I grew up at a time and in a religious school and social environment that was very homophobic. I could not even imagine how horrible it must have been like for these male freinds of mine fearing that if their peers, teachers, school priests and family knew their were homosexual that they would likely be at risk for constantly being verbally and physically harrased. Thankfully at least in this city and country understanding of LGBT has improved since then ( I am sure it still has a long way to go as well).

I personally still feel guilty in a way because as a teen I sort of had a feeling they were gay, but would have never brought it up as I honestly would have been terrified for them because I can say with certainty they would have been in serious danger of being physical assauted and bullied in my school or at home. But I would have wanted them to know that their sexuality would have made no difference in terms of our freindships. Anyone have kids in Catholic Schools in Canada right now? I am really curious how LGBT related topics are being addressed in the Catholic School system.
It's not a stretch at all. Gay people have always said that gay bashers and those who fling slurs in high school are usually gay. They do it to deflect any suggestion that they themselves are gay. The mentality being " I hate gays, so I couldn't possible be one " Some have such a self hatred they never come out. Some it isn't self hatred but shame. They don't want to " let down " family and friends. So they live a lie.

In regards to the killer in this latest instance, no one can say for sure, but the evidence seems to point that way. I wonder if he sincerely tried to make friendly connections in the bar, but because of his other mental issues didn't. Patrons did say he was a bit of a loner and threatened someone in the bar, so they left him alone.
Maybe he sat there blaming them for his troubles and therefore lashed out at them in the most horrific way.
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Old 06-15-2016, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,128,404 times
Reputation: 3738
Well assuming Mateen was indeed gay - who knows how life would have been for him if he didn't have parents/family/friends shoving the gays are going to hell crap down their throats. I doubt his father, judging by his comments created an accepting climate in the home that is for sure. So not saying this never would have happened if his family/friends said Mateen its ok to be gay we love and accept you anyway, but it could have been a piece in the chain of events that are showing to be multifactorial psychological and sociological triggers that let up to his unhinging.

Our community isn't exactly the most accepting either if you don't fit into a certain mold. We could learn a lot ourselves about what we expect from society at large.
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Old 06-15-2016, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,320,303 times
Reputation: 8601
Quote:
Originally Posted by klmrocks View Post
I have a theory ... it is a strech and ikely inspired by too many tv/shows or movies. Even before the reports came out about the shotter being seen in the same night club hanging out numerous times there was more to why he choose this target. I find a lot of times when people significantly convey homophobia I honestly question if they are dealing with their own internal conflict. For example various religions are historically very homophobic, Islam is just one of them. If you are homosexual and grow up in a cultural and religion that teaches you that being homosexual is wrong/ bad/ evil and does not accept that fact that people are born hetero or homosexual then how messed up can that cause you to be? I question if the shooter was struggling with a sexual identity crisis among other mental health issues.

I was raised Catholic and had several male freinds in high school that came out as adults. I grew up at a time and in a religious school and social environment that was very homophobic. I could not even imagine how horrible it must have been like for these male freinds of mine fearing that if their peers, teachers, school priests and family knew their were homosexual that they would likely be at risk for constantly being verbally and physically harrased. Thankfully at least in this city and country understanding of LGBT has improved since then ( I am sure it still has a long way to go as well).

I personally still feel guilty in a way because as a teen I sort of had a feeling they were gay, but would have never brought it up as I honestly would have been terrified for them because I can say with certainty they would have been in serious danger of being physical assauted and bullied in my school or at home. But I would have wanted them to know that their sexuality would have made no difference in terms of our freindships. Anyone have kids in Catholic Schools in Canada right now? I am really curious how LGBT related topics are being addressed in the Catholic School system.
I have nephews and nieces in Catholic schools in Ontario at the moment. I also have friends and relatives who teach in the system. I believe Ontario is the only province that fully funds separate Catholic schools as if they were "public".


I've never heard anyone report homosexuality being discussed at school, in either a positive or a negative way.


I do know that Ontario Catholic schools do tread carefully on the issue as they are in delicate situation and living on borrowed time as it's kind of odd that they get funding but there is no funding for Protestant, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, etc. schools.


So on the one hand they don't want to cause too much trouble for the government by going against anti-discrimination and human rights requirements, and on the other they have to stay faithful to Catholic doctrine.


There are occasional run-ins though. Like gay kids who want to take a same sex date to their prom and are told they can't.


Or cases like this one:


Gay rights school project turned down by Ottawa Catholic School Board - Ottawa - CBC News


Often the Catholic schools will backpedal when there is an outcry.


I do think that private religious schools have a lot more leeway, and within the walls of some of them there are probably some doozies that are said about gays.
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Old 06-15-2016, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,666 posts, read 8,737,253 times
Reputation: 7273
This preacher has some points.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wQoezeTxIE
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Old 06-15-2016, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Somewhere below Mason/Dixon
6,507 posts, read 7,452,949 times
Reputation: 10901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnatomicflux View Post
I always like your posts, danielj. Reasonable, and well thought out. You're are always welcome in the Canada forum, so far as I'm concerned.



I would just like to show you section 319, of the criminal code of Canada regarding hate speech. I don't see a huge difference than what you just described......unless I'm missing something. Certainly not what appears to be what a lot of Americans seem to think our "hate speech" laws are.
Thank you for the kind words and for your addition of the Canadian law on hate speech. I have always believed the Canadian law on that was slightly stricter than our laws (state laws apply here in US) but it does look quite similar. The laws in Europe however are known to be a lot stricter than both the US and Canada regarding hate speech. There are suggestions by some here in the US that our free speech should be curbed, especially after events like this. Personally I have always felt that free speech is valuable enough to accept the downside of allowing such speech. The real danger involved in restricting free speech is in drawing the line between "hate speech" and normal political, religious or personal values speech. It would be interesting what Europeans would have to say about this issue and how those laws work over there.
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Old 06-15-2016, 06:56 PM
 
1,300 posts, read 828,608 times
Reputation: 3625
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
There is really just no sense having a discussion with you about matters of race or religion. I've been there and done that before in the Toronto section with you. I'm sorry, but anyone who is going to close this country off to a whole group of people because of their skin colour or religious views, even though the majority of those people are not what you claim they are is prejudiced plain and simple. No sense putting lipstick on that pig.
You have your opinions and I disagree with them. You're asking Canadians to accept a certain level of violence and crime from some groups of people just to not be prejudiced against them?? Really? Why should we be forced to import people who have been known to have constant violence, crime and other social issues and hope that either we're able to 'fix them' or pray that they won't do too much damage to us instead of allowing people to come to Canada who's chances of causing Canadians serious harm is relatively minimal?

In every other faucet of life you would choose the option that is the lowest risk and has the best chance to give you the highest reward, which is the logical and sane thing to do. But when it comes to immigrants somehow that all goes out the window and we have to force ourselves to accept people who's values and principals and behaviors are often not inline with ours and also have to accept that a good portion of them may be criminal and violent. Yeah that makes a TON of sense to me. >_>

Quote:
I have a lot of friends who are blacks and muslims and many who were not born here and if we adopted your practices it would automatically preclude them from being Canadian regardless of what kind of person they are. Its a slippery slope tactic, not to mention incredible unfair and unjust and I shudder to think who would be next. What you're dishing out is not consistent with our values in this country.
If your friends are skilled and educated then they can apply for immigration to Canada like everyone else, but there's no reason to take them in just because they're supposedly escaping a bad situation and most certainly I don't see why we need to allow 25-30000 refugees in within just a few months just because they're escaping a war. There are other ways of helping people other than letting them flood into your nation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
because you question is badly flawed -- how can you lump 1.5 billion Muslims together and ask what makes them special and why do we need them as immigrants? Honestly, don't you find the question itself stupid?
No the question is quite valid. There are other immigrants that we could allow in beside Muslims that will almost 100% be more productive and less trouble than Muslims, so unless Muslims are in some way superior to non-Muslim immigrants, there really is no reason to take them in above non-Muslim immigrants.

Quote:
We are not saying we need to have more Muslims specifically. I am saying we shouldn't deliberately exclude such a large group just because a small percentage of bad apples. Of course, for you, it is probably easy to convince yourself: "well, since a small percentage of them are bad apples, why not keep them ALL out? it will make me feel safer". It sounds like a logical thing to do, but following the same logic our public policies will be disastrous and laughable. Why do we need white immigrants since many can be dangerous white supremacists? Why do you give social aid to the poor since many of them are drug addicts? Why should we accept American tourists since America has so much gun violence?
A 'small percentage' to YOU is still make times worse than what's considered normal in Canada. The murder rate among blacks in Toronto is low compared to the murder rate of blacks in many African nations, but its still MANY TIMES HIGHER than the murder rate of non-blacks in Toronto. I don't know how you can say its 'a small percentage' when Toronto is averaging almost a shooting a day so far this year and most of them involve blacks and somehow you STILL try and find a way to minimize this problem.

The same with Muslims where even if 0.01% are violent and criminal that's STILL 15 MILLION Muslims in the world that would do people harm and that's probably a LOW AND VERY OPTIMISTIC estimate.


Quote:
I will say that again, immigration policies, or any policy, should be looking at people on an individual level, not a group level. You can't say "you are not allowed in because you happen to belong to that ethnic group which tend to cause more trouble". Do you think that's fair? Do you want to be treated purely on the basis of your own skills and abilities or some general perception about the large ethnic/religious group you happen to be a member of?
As I said before if we don't want to ban certain groups we could limit them and allow them in based on their individual merits and you get what you want. But how is allowing 25-30,000 refugees in within a few months a good thing? How do we evaluate these people individually when they come in in one massive flood like that? Why should Canadians accept this with no questions asked??


Quote:
And I suppose in the previous context you were talking about immigrants. In terms of refugees, the reason is simple: it is the Muslim world that is ravaged by wars and terrorism right now (largely thanks to Western countries, I hope by now I don't need to explain this further). We simply are trying to save some innocent lives within our ability. If you are selfish enough to deny that, then there is no point in such discussion. I'd rather help those war refugees than those able-bodied Canadians (vastly majority being white) who hang out on Yonge st everyday with a drug face asking "do you have any change?"
So just a paragraph above you stated you want to judge people INDIVIDUALLY and then you now say you wouldn't want to help out fellow Canadians on the street because alot of them look like druggies? Good job.

And with regards to Muslims, as I said before why must allowing them into our country be THE ONE AND ONLY WAY to help them?? Japan has given a ton of money to help refugees and that's all they wanted to do to and no one is calling them racist for saying thanks but no thanks to allowing them in. Yet if Canada did the same thing we'd be racists and so we like many other western nations are FORCED to take them in when Japan doesn't have to. Yep that's very fair.
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Old 06-15-2016, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,811 posts, read 4,431,836 times
Reputation: 3253
Quote:
Originally Posted by klmrocks View Post
I have a theory ... it is a strech and ikely inspired by too many tv/shows or movies. Even before the reports came out about the shotter being seen in the same night club hanging out numerous times there was more to why he choose this target. I find a lot of times when people significantly convey homophobia I honestly question if they are dealing with their own internal conflict. For example various religions are historically very homophobic, Islam is just one of them. If you are homosexual and grow up in a cultural and religion that teaches you that being homosexual is wrong/ bad/ evil and does not accept that fact that people are born hetero or homosexual then how messed up can that cause you to be? I question if the shooter was struggling with a sexual identity crisis among other mental health issues.

I was raised Catholic and had several male freinds in high school that came out as adults. I grew up at a time and in a religious school and social environment that was very homophobic. I could not even imagine how horrible it must have been like for these male freinds of mine fearing that if their peers, teachers, school priests and family knew their were homosexual that they would likely be at risk for constantly being verbally and physically harrased. Thankfully at least in this city and country understanding of LGBT has improved since then ( I am sure it still has a long way to go as well).

I personally still feel guilty in a way because as a teen I sort of had a feeling they were gay, but would have never brought it up as I honestly would have been terrified for them because I can say with certainty they would have been in serious danger of being physical assauted and bullied in my school or at home. But I would have wanted them to know that their sexuality would have made no difference in terms of our freindships. Anyone have kids in Catholic Schools in Canada right now? I am really curious how LGBT related topics are being addressed in the Catholic School system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
This preacher has some points.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wQoezeTxIE
Yes, he does make some excellent points. You and KLMROCKS are both right. Religion is the number one enemy of gays. There is no question about it.
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Old 06-15-2016, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,666 posts, read 8,737,253 times
Reputation: 7273
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
Yes, he does make some excellent points. You and KLMROCKS are both right. Religion is the number one enemy of gays. There is no question about it.
To be clear, some religions. I know some very pro-gay religious people and religious organizations.

I personally have nothing against religious beliefs, as long as they don't promote hate or discrimination and expect people to follow their rules.
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Old 06-15-2016, 07:41 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,811 posts, read 4,431,836 times
Reputation: 3253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
To be clear, some religions. I know some very pro-gay religious people and religious organizations.
True, but that doesn't change the fact that the some of the biggest opposition to gays comes from religious communities, and lets be honest some religions are more aggressive about this than others.
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