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Old 06-15-2016, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,338,144 times
Reputation: 8602

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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
True, but that doesn't change the fact that the some of the biggest opposition to gays comes from religious communities, and lets be honest some religions are more aggressive about this than others.
It never ceases to amaze me how so many gays are so very sympathetic to certain religions and support their demands under the guise that ''we're all minorities, and minorities botta stick together". Even if these same religions can be extremely homophobic. They conveniently overlook this, and if certain other religions (perceived as non-minority I guess) did them same thing, the gay community would be screaming bloody murder.

It all smacks of an incredible naïveté. And other stuff too.
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Old 06-15-2016, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,338,144 times
Reputation: 8602
Some of the religions that gays have passionately defended here and elsewhere would throw gays under the bus (or worse) in a second if ever they gained significant power in Canada.
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Old 06-15-2016, 08:40 PM
 
2,559 posts, read 2,177,631 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Some of the religions that gays have passionately defended here and elsewhere would throw gays under the bus (or worse) in a second if ever they gained significant power in Canada.
Aside from Islam and a few sects of evangelical Christianity, which other mainstream world religions actively espouse hate and intolerance in today's world?

From bottom of my heart I have no feelings for Islam and what it stands for. At the same time, I defend its rights to co-exist and thrive in our highly multicultural community because liberty, fraternity, and tolerance are always a two-way street: you can't demand tolerance and acceptance for one group of minorities while actively suppressing another group's rights to self-determination. I also wouldn't call that naivete because I'm sure most people in today's world are fully aware of the likes of ISIS and what those forces stand for when it comes to gay rights and human rights. However, it is about sending an unquestionably clear message, especially to those sitting on the fence, that regardless of the brutality from a small group of radical terrorists we will stand by our values and walk our words when it comes to freedom, tolerance, and self-determination for all. It's simple as that and the great Voltaire said it best nearly 300 years ago:

Monsieur l’abbé, je déteste ce que vous écrivez, mais je donnerai ma vie pour que vous puissiez continuer à écrire.
Monsieur l’abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write.

Last edited by bostonkid123; 06-15-2016 at 08:49 PM..
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Old 06-15-2016, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,133,432 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
It never ceases to amaze me how so many gays are so very sympathetic to certain religions and support their demands under the guise that ''we're all minorities, and minorities botta stick together". Even if these same religions can be extremely homophobic. They conveniently overlook this, and if certain other religions (perceived as non-minority I guess) did them same thing, the gay community would be screaming bloody murder.

It all smacks of an incredible naïveté. And other stuff too.
I don't really understand what you expect us to do about it? I get that many religions don't 'love' us but I also know a plethora of people from a variety of religious backgrounds and they don't allow their religion to impact their day to day dealings with people. Do you expect me to become Max Sterling? What exactly is the expectation from us as the gay community in your eyes? Put a quota on how many Muslims or Hindu's etc are allowed in the country because they will make our society more conservative if given a chance? Start a Gays against muslims bashing club? Like spill the beans A/J. What is your concern and what is the solution? Not so much even from the Gay community but as a Straight person. As a Canadian who is not from said religious groups that you are concerned about.

There is a certain level of assimilation as well. The kids of these more conservative elements start getting a taste for the freedom they have in this country and take advantage of it and live their own lives. I don't really think the threat to our values is as big as what is being made out. I certainly don't buy into the incredibly insular paranoia and fear that Max has.

Last edited by fusion2; 06-15-2016 at 09:19 PM..
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Old 06-15-2016, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,133,432 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Sterling View Post
You have your opinions and I disagree with them. You're asking Canadians to accept a certain level of violence and crime from some groups of people just to not be prejudiced against them?? Really? Why should we be forced to import people who have been known to have constant violence, crime and other social issues and hope that either we're able to 'fix them' or pray that they won't do too much damage to us instead of allowing people to come to Canada who's chances of causing Canadians serious harm is relatively minimal?

In every other faucet of life you would choose the option that is the lowest risk and has the best chance to give you the highest reward, which is the logical and sane thing to do. But when it comes to immigrants somehow that all goes out the window and we have to force ourselves to accept people who's values and principals and behaviors are often not inline with ours and also have to accept that a good portion of them may be criminal and violent. Yeah that makes a TON of sense to me. >_>

If your friends are skilled and educated then they can apply for immigration to Canada like everyone else, but there's no reason to take them in just because they're supposedly escaping a bad situation and most certainly I don't see why we need to allow 25-30000 refugees in within just a few months just because they're escaping a war. There are other ways of helping people other than letting them flood into your nation.

.
The election was over back in October of 2015. I think Canadians spoke loud and clear Max, so its not just me. Clearly Canadians have a more parallel view with me on these matters than they do of yours. Clearly their values and my values are more closely aligned. Since you like logic, seems like a logical conclusion for one to make.

btw - what evidence do you have that the Syrian Refugees will engage in a certain level of violence. Let us not forget that Omar Mateen was a U.S citizen and not a refugee or even an immigrant. In this day and age, it could have been a lily white kid from an Evangelical Christian background that became influenced by Islamic fundamentalists. There were plenty of Lily white boys that ISIS recruited! Some of them blew themselves to bits as martyrs for the cause.

As Hillary Clinton said, I don't know how you build a wall to keep the internet out.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...de-attack.html

Also regarding blacks - can you clarify that you would shut our borders to ALL black immigrants or would you just use a more intense screening process for them. Maybe infringe on their rights just in case they decide to engage in violence? You know, pre-emptive strikes and be damned with their rights so to speak. Also, what would you do if another group of immigrants started to develop a propensity for violence than other groups - would you advocate a sort of immigration system that looks at crime rates by ethnicity and if it goes above an arbitrary percentage you would implement closing the border to said ethnicity. Where does it end Max?

Last edited by fusion2; 06-15-2016 at 09:31 PM..
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Old 06-15-2016, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,338,144 times
Reputation: 8602
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I don't really understand what you expect us to do about it? I get that many religions don't 'love' us but I also know a plethora of people from a variety of religious backgrounds and they don't allow their religion to impact their day to day dealings with people. Do you expect me to become Max Sterling? What exactly is the expectation from us as the gay community in your eyes? Put a quota on how many Muslims or Hindu's etc are allowed in the country because they will make our society more conservative if given a chance? Start a Gays against muslims bashing club? Like spill the beans A/J. What is your concern and what is the solution? Not so much even from the Gay community but as a Straight person. As a Canadian who is not from said religious groups that you are concerned about.
.
I don't necessarily want you to do anything. I just find surprising the eagerness and willingness to give a blank cheque to any form of religious accommodation or freedom to be demander or exercised, simply because (I assume), they're minorities "too".
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Old 06-15-2016, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,338,144 times
Reputation: 8602
To further clarify, note that I did not name any names, or at least no religions.

What I will say is that most of Canada's gays are from Christian families, or at least families that were Christian a génération or two ago.

These days it seems like it's not cool to bash on religions that are predominantly practised by immigrants (regardless of the compatibility of their belief systems and practices with Canadian values), whereas it's perfectly cool to bash on your grand-parents' religion (likely to be Christianity).

In the former case, criticizing them is, I guess, uncosmopolitan...

For my part, I'll bash any belief system regardless of its origin if I think it's retrograde.

Cosmopolitanism be damned.
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Old 06-15-2016, 09:29 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,811 posts, read 4,434,812 times
Reputation: 3257
I think it unfair to say it is just Muslims and Christians. Hindus and Sikh have more than their share of extremist and anti gay views. If people don't want to see it, that is something different.


Tories dump candidate who touts therapies to turn gay youth straight - Politics - CBC News
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Old 06-15-2016, 09:29 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,338,144 times
Reputation: 8602
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
There is a certain level of assimilation as well. The kids of these more conservative elements start getting a taste for the freedom they have in this country and take advantage of it and live their own lives. I don't really think the threat to our values is as big as what is being made out. I certainly don't buy into the incredibly insular paranoia and fear that Max has.
Could be. OTOH there are signs that higher levels of religiosity are making a come-back in Canadian society. Yes, the percentage of non-religious people continues to rise but those who remain religious are increasingly devout and conservative.
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Old 06-15-2016, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,338,144 times
Reputation: 8602
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
I think it unfair to say it is just Muslims and Christians. Hindus and Sikh have more than their share of extremist and anti gay views. If people don't want to see it, that is something different.


Tories dump candidate who touts therapies to turn gay youth straight - Politics - CBC News
Note again that I did not name names!

I also have issues with Orthodox Jewish men who don't want to sit next to women on airplanes, for example.
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