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Old 06-18-2016, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Southern Quebec
1,290 posts, read 905,722 times
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Too many guns in the US.

Guns don't kill people...people do. It's an old cliché, but it's true.

Not to say that some of us Canucks don't have access to guns. We live right next door to a reserve and we some know people there, and I'm sure that if we were interested in obtaining a gun, we could get one, no problem.

Don't forget that Canada is far less populated than the US is, despite its size. I'm sure that has something to do with the violence that often erupts in the US.

Too many people squeezed into small spaces in some US cities. I can understand why that would lead to tension.

Insofar as the Orlando shooting is concerned, I'll be glad when another news item surfaces to knock this story off...and it will.

It might sound cold, but enough already.

Same as the poor tyke who was dragged off by that reptile. Jokes and memes are already all over the place online.

It's enough...and it's our strange way of coping, isn't it, black humour?

NEXT!
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Old 06-18-2016, 11:29 AM
 
14,234 posts, read 6,132,713 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post
As per a suggestion in the Condolences thread, I'm starting this thread to discuss Canadians' (and others) thoughts on the Orlando shooting.

To kick things off, I'm reminded of a message I got from a colleague earlier today. Paraphrased, it was "Is it terrorism? Is it hatred? The two are not mutually exclusive, but they can be." An interesting point, I thought: did the shooter do what he did because he was Muslim and thus, hated gays; or did he do what he did because he hated gays, and just happened to be Muslim? Which latter point caused me to wonder: what if the Westboro Baptist Church was behind this? Would it be terrorism then, or a hate crime? Or both?

Or was this guy simply a lone nut, like Charles Whitman or Brenda Ann Spencer; neither of whom were really motivated by anything, and who selected targets more for ease of killing than for any ideology?

So many questions. Let's discuss.
Considering the man claimed allegiance to ISIS, made many terrorist threats throughout his life, and did this during Ramadan, I'd say it was Islamic terrorism. All terrorist acts are hate crimes as well.
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Old 06-18-2016, 11:33 AM
 
14,234 posts, read 6,132,713 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
First of a couple of posts on this.


Yes, it IS a gun control issue regardless of how many ways certain people want to spin it.


This guy did have a permit to buy anything he wanted but should he have had one (even if required for his job) if he had been on an FBI watch list? And he also exhibited erratic behaviour according to people in his entourage.


The lack of proper checks and balances on guns, who buys them, and how powerful they can be, and how certain aspects of a person's background are not linked to the ability to purchase guns... all issues relevant to this tragedy.
All the background checks in this country would have still allowed him his gun. His ex-wife never had him arrested for family violence. He had a security job. The FBI removed him from the watch list. If he was unable to get his guns, he would have had his wife and co-conspirator get them.
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Old 06-18-2016, 12:28 PM
 
14,234 posts, read 6,132,713 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOkidd View Post
I think that the Pulse Nightclub shootings cannot be put in a little box and labeled neatly: terror, hate crime, mass shooting. It is all of those things. I am a Canadian and a licensed firearms owner and I blanch at the absurd politics of guns in America. Donald Trump thinks political correctness is hurting America? What about the kind of political correctness that prevents any common sense gun regulation from being passed or even discussed in Washington because politicians are too scared to alienate gun "culturalists." You think people in America are too sensitive to have honest discussions about race and culture? Try going on a forum or comments section and calling an AR-15 an assault weapon and watch how you get piled on by people who object viciously to that term. You think the phrase radical Islamic terrorism is controverisial? The term assault rifle seems to get people a lot more worked up. Try having a rational conversation about the Second Amendment with a Second Amendment absolutist. Try to talk about statistics and raw data about gun violence, and listen to people tell you that a handgun or AR-15 is no more dangerous than a car. The same people who object to an AR being called an assault weapon are the same people who buy said weapon because of its military pedigree. It is marketed as a military weapon with all the same features except the auto/semi-auto toggle switch. The same people who are "Originalists" when it comes to the Second Amendment are often the same ones who think people should be discriminated against because of their religion, or that the right to due process should not exist for certain classes of suspected criminals. Enjoy the lectures about knives and guns and cars being no different in their capacity to commit murder. Hear the catcalls, soak up the insults, witness the polarization, and it becomes clear that certain kinds of political correctness are perfectly acceptable to the same folks who lament that political correctness of another kind has stifled debate in America and made it more susceptible to acts of terrorism. But witness the silence when someone notes that the amount of gun murders committed in America in a single year dwarfs the number of murders at the hands of terrorists in America for the last hundred, or mentions how few instances there are of armed civilians being able to stop a mass shooting in progress, or the vicious objections raised when America's murder rate is compared to that of almost every country on Earth.

So while I think the Pulse murders are the products of bigotry, radicalism, deranged thinking, etc., I also think they are a product of political correctness on an epic scale, which prevents otherwise rational men and women from having a serious debate about gun violence in America and taking steps to stop it. The Pulse massacre does not fit neatly into one category, but there is one thing that all mass shootings in America have in common: the ubiquity of lethal weapons designed for war readily available to anyone who wants one, and the failure of America's political establishment to do anything about it. As much as anything, the innocent victims of this massacre are victims of gun culture. If radical Islam had a role in motivating a murderer to commit a horrific attack, American gun culture certainly enabled him to do it.
If the Pulse people are victims of gun culture, then what are the victims of attacks in Paris?
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Old 06-18-2016, 01:16 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,703 posts, read 8,778,861 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katygirl68 View Post
If the Pulse people are victims of gun culture, then what are the victims of attacks in Paris?
False equivalency attempt. Just because both incidents involved guns doesn't negate than one happened in a country with a strong gun culture.

The difference is the Paris shootings were orchestrated by people with an ideology who planned and plotted their attack in a group. Their shootings were directed at a citizenry, from all backgrounds. Targeted for sure, but not in the same way as the shooting in Florida.

The Orlando shooter, was a mentally unstable lone wolf, social misfit. He also was possibly a self-hating gay who quite possible chose his victims for that reason. The gun culture part is important to this story because he was so easily able to buy a gun with such high power. That would not of been easily possible in other countries. No one can predict what he would of done if he couldn't get the gun. Some say he would of just bough a handgun, again something not easily done in other countries.

He did not belong to a group, terrorist or otherwise.

Here is a short video comparing the US and Canada to give an idea of gun control differences.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE0MiJeCzN0

Last edited by Natnasci; 06-18-2016 at 01:27 PM..
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Old 06-18-2016, 01:31 PM
 
14,234 posts, read 6,132,713 times
Reputation: 8873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
False equivalency attempt. Just because both incidents involved guns doesn't negate than one happened in a country with a strong gun culture.

The difference is the Paris shootings were orchestrated by people with an ideology who planned and plotted their attack in a group. Their shootings were directed at a citizenry, from all backgrounds. Targeted for sure, but not in the same way as the shooting in Florida.

The Orlando shooter, was a mentally unstable lone wolf, social misfit. He also was possibly a self-hating gay who quite possible chose his victims for that reason. The gun culture part is important to this story because he was so easily able to buy a gun with such high power. That would not of been easily possible in other countries. No one can predict what he would of done if he couldn't get the gun. Some say he would of just bough a handgun, again something not easily done in other countries.

He did not belong to a group, terrorist or otherwise.

Here is a short video comparing the US and Canada to give an idea of gun control differences.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE0MiJeCzN0
And yet those people in Belgium were also easily able to obtain weapons, without a gun culture in that country. And I can guarantee Mateef would have easily been able to obtain a gun illegally if he couldn't pass a background check, because guns are there for the taking if you're willing to break the law. A man bent on murder is willing to do so. If the United States had the types of checks they are talking about, Mateef would have still passed because he was never charged with any crimes after he became an adult. If the United States had a gun ban and buy-back program, we would still be swimming in guns because they don't just disappear and we border some of the worst narco states in the world. There really isn't a solution that doesn't include disarming law abiding citizens while the criminals still have guns.

Look at Brazil. They had 56,000 murders in 2014, even though their citizens cannot go into a gun shop and buy an arsenal. Those our are neighbors, and the cartels would love a new black market that would make the Prohibition era look like child's play.
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Old 06-18-2016, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,811 posts, read 4,453,273 times
Reputation: 3262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
False equivalency attempt. Just because both incidents involved guns doesn't negate than one happened in a country with a strong gun culture.

The difference is the Paris shootings were orchestrated by people with an ideology who planned and plotted their attack in a group. Their shootings were directed at a citizenry, from all backgrounds. Targeted for sure, but not in the same way as the shooting in Florida.

The Orlando shooter, was a mentally unstable lone wolf, social misfit. He also was possibly a self-hating gay who quite possible chose his victims for that reason. The gun culture part is important to this story because he was so easily able to buy a gun with such high power. That would not of been easily possible in other countries. No one can predict what he would of done if he couldn't get the gun. Some say he would of just bough a handgun, again something not easily done in other countries.

He did not belong to a group, terrorist or otherwise.

Here is a short video comparing the US and Canada to give an idea of gun control differences.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE0MiJeCzN0
Her question was valid though. France has strict gun laws and looked what happened. Are you willing to admit that religious extremist, Islam in both of these cases probably had a roll to play in it? Or do you completely rule that out?
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Old 06-18-2016, 02:03 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,703 posts, read 8,778,861 times
Reputation: 7319
Quote:
Originally Posted by katygirl68 View Post
And yet those people in Belgium were also easily able to obtain weapons, without a gun culture in that country. And I can guarantee Mateef would have easily been able to obtain a gun illegally if he couldn't pass a background check, because guns are there for the taking if you're willing to break the law. A man bent on murder is willing to do so. If the United States had the types of checks they are talking about, Mateef would have still passed because he was never charged with any crimes after he became an adult. If the United States had a gun ban and buy-back program, we would still be swimming in guns because they don't just disappear and we border some of the worst narco states in the world. There really isn't a solution that doesn't include disarming law abiding citizens while the criminals still have guns.

Look at Brazil. They had 56,000 murders in 2014, even though their citizens cannot go into a gun shop and buy an arsenal. Those our are neighbors, and the cartels would love a new black market that would make the Prohibition era look like child's play.
Someone intent on destruction will find a way, no doubt. Yes a group in pretty much any country will get guns illegally. They already have those connections.

The difference in the lone wolf scenarios, is you are usually dealing with a mentally ill person. Stricter gun control laws, would force someone with no criminal connections to go seeking that kind of fire power. More likely to be noticed while attempting to do so.
Stricter gun control laws also make illegal guns harder to get, since there are less of them.

Now, in the US, even if it were to adopt the same gun control laws as say Canada, is still going to have huge issues because of the amount of guns out there.

Gun control may be too late for you and there is a reason why the US has more mass shootings than others.

Brazil is much more lawless than the US or Europe. Totally different kettle of fish. Look at similar countries where gun control works at keeping gun deaths down.

Also it's not just terrorists, lone wolves who have guns that cause harm. Look at the stats on suicide by gun, and accidental shootings. Just the fact that a two year old can reach into mommies purse and shoot her should be enough for people to realize the status quo can be improved.
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Old 06-18-2016, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,703 posts, read 8,778,861 times
Reputation: 7319
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
Her question was valid though. France has strict gun laws and looked what happened. Are you willing to admit that religious extremist, Islam in both of these cases probably had a roll to play in it? Or do you completely rule that out?
I rule it out in the Orlando case, IF by extremist you mean someone who had real connections to a terrorist group ( he did not ) or was known to be extremely religious and devout ( his family and co-workers say he was not ).

He was a nut job who happened to mention ISIS on his THIRD 911 call. That is the only connection.

Last edited by Natnasci; 06-18-2016 at 02:25 PM..
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Old 06-18-2016, 02:36 PM
 
14,234 posts, read 6,132,713 times
Reputation: 8873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
Someone intent on destruction will find a way, no doubt. Yes a group in pretty much any country will get guns illegally. They already have those connections.

The difference in the lone wolf scenarios, is you are usually dealing with a mentally ill person. Stricter gun control laws, would force someone with no criminal connections to go seeking that kind of fire power. More likely to be noticed while attempting to do so.
Stricter gun control laws also make illegal guns harder to get, since there are less of them.

Now, in the US, even if it were to adopt the same gun control laws as say Canada, is still going to have huge issues because of the amount of guns out there.

Gun control may be too late for you and there is a reason why the US has more mass shootings than others.

Brazil is much more lawless than the US or Europe. Totally different kettle of fish. Look at similar countries where gun control works at keeping gun deaths down.

Also it's not just terrorists, lone wolves who have guns that cause harm. Look at the stats on suicide by gun, and accidental shootings. Just the fact that a two year old can reach into mommies purse and shoot her should be enough for people to realize the status quo can be improved.
They keep those murders down in those countries because they do not have the demographics, drugs, and borders with corrupt narco states. The murder rate in Vermont is similar to somewhere in Europe. But LA, Houston, Miami, you have a much different story.
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