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Old 06-18-2016, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,811 posts, read 4,433,356 times
Reputation: 3257

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
I rule it out in the Orlando case, IF by extremist you mean someone who had real connections to a terrorist group ( he did not ) or was known to be extremely religious and devout ( his family and co-workers say he was not ).

He was a nut job who happened to mention ISIS on his THIRD 911 call. That is the only connection.
You don't have to belong to a terrorist group to have extremist views. His family said he was not religious yet he had made pilgrimages to Mecca....... several times. I know plenty of Muslims and the majority of them have not been to Mecca. Having mental health issues does not mean religious views didn't play a role in this. Why did he have such a negative view or hate of gays? Is it really that hard to believe his religion played a role in his negative view of gays?
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Old 06-18-2016, 02:45 PM
 
14,193 posts, read 6,103,266 times
Reputation: 8847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
I rule it out in the Orlando case, IF by extremist you mean someone who had real connections to a terrorist group ( he did not ) or was known to be extremely religious and devout ( his family and co-workers say he was not ).

He was a nut job who happened to mention ISIS on his THIRD 911 call. That is the only connection.
How do you know he didn't have connections? We haven't been told that at this point, and a gun shop owner who turned him away a few weeks ago said he tried to get body armor and when told they don't sell it, he made a phone call and started talking in a foreign language, then asked for bulk ammo. Now it could have been his wife, but it also could have been someone else.
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Old 06-18-2016, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,130,951 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
And what does you have gay black freinds have anything to do with what im saying? I am not saying the same thing as max sterling. I never even mentioned blacks or skin color. I was pretty clear that I was talking about religion and extremist.
I didn't say you said anything about blacks. I was having a discussion with you more about him and his insular views and paranoia - not about what you said. I don't think you're a closed minded guy at all. Him on the other hand should go on the campaign trail with Donald Trump. He'd be right at home.

Have you ever seen Religulous?
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Old 06-18-2016, 03:45 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,811 posts, read 4,433,356 times
Reputation: 3257
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I didn't say you said anything about blacks. I was having a discussion with you more about him - not about what you said. I don't think you're a closed minded guy. Him on the other hand should go on the campaign trail with Donald Trump. He'd be right at home.

Yeah I definitely don't agree with Max Sterling. I just wanted to make sure that was clear.
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Old 06-18-2016, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,670 posts, read 8,740,385 times
Reputation: 7281
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
You don't have to belong to a terrorist group to have extremist views. His family said he was not religious yet he had made pilgrimages to Mecca....... several times. I know plenty of Muslims and the majority of them have not been to Mecca. Having mental health issues does not mean religious views didn't play a role in this. Why did he have such a negative view or hate of gays? Is it really that hard to believe his religion played a role in his negative view of gays?
He went with family members on a trip organized by the NYU Centre. They believe he went with his mother.

He went twice, but it's a leap to assume that someone visiting Mecca on a trip organized by a university and NYC travel agency must be a radical or extremist.

Just because the muslims you know haven't been to mecca doesn't mean much, when millions of muslims do go to Mecca and they vary in the amount of devotion.

I wonder how many of proven Islamic Terrorists have been to mecca? Is this even a fair way to judge someone's extremism? Hmmmm. Not sure about that.

Society and religion most certainly played a part in his hating gays. Lots of " believers " in lots of religions dislike gays and gay kids grow up feeling that hatred. Some get over it and live great lives, some become self-haters.
It is a fact he frequented the club. It is a fact that his behaviour was anti-social enough that the clubbers didn't interact with him much. It is a fact that he frequented gay hook up sites. Now whether he hooked up or not, I haven't heard. However most anti-gay religious fanatics do not frequent gay clubs or hook up sites.

Gay muslims exist and gay muslims have contact and support groups. It's too bad he didn't seek them out...but maybe he really wasn't as religious as some are saying.
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Old 06-18-2016, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Toronto
1,570 posts, read 2,810,914 times
Reputation: 1591
Quote:
Originally Posted by katygirl68 View Post
And yet those people in Belgium were also easily able to obtain weapons, without a gun culture in that country. And I can guarantee Mateef would have easily been able to obtain a gun illegally if he couldn't pass a background check, because guns are there for the taking if you're willing to break the law. A man bent on murder is willing to do so. If the United States had the types of checks they are talking about, Mateef would have still passed because he was never charged with any crimes after he became an adult. If the United States had a gun ban and buy-back program, we would still be swimming in guns because they don't just disappear and we border some of the worst narco states in the world. There really isn't a solution that doesn't include disarming law abiding citizens while the criminals still have guns.

Look at Brazil. They had 56,000 murders in 2014, even though their citizens cannot go into a gun shop and buy an arsenal. Those our are neighbors, and the cartels would love a new black market that would make the Prohibition era look like child's play.
Natnasci was absolutely right that you are making a false equivalency and comparing apples to oranges. In doing so, you are proving my point perfectly that there are individuals who simply cannot have a rational conversation about this topic where logic and facts prevail. Your false equivalency is one of many deployed by many gun "culturalists" to make arguments that sound reasonable on the surface, but fall apart under scrutiny.

So let's take a closer look at your earlier statement that gun culture has no significance at all in mass shootings like the one at Pulse, because the same kind of thing happened in Paris and Brussels. You seem to suggest that because these things have happened in nations where more rigid civilian gun ownership laws are in place, the ubiquity of guns in America is not the problem at all.

So far in 2016, the US has had 140 shootings where there were at least four victims (this includes both injuries and deaths). 212 people died in these 140 separate instances. I couldn't even take the time to count the injured, but ther were about 600. President Obama has had to make, what, fifteen public statements about only the most gruesome gun massacres during his eight-year tenure. By comparison, France has had only four fatalities as a result of mass shootings (using the same definition: where there were four or more victims in a single incident).... Between 2009-2015!!!! Your argument seems like the definition of a false equivalency. And how many gun murders does Belgium or France have in an average year, other than these extremely rare, well planned terrorist attacks which were well-financed, and relied on sophisticated networks of radicals, smugglers and individual terrorists who had, in many cases, received specialized combat training, and relied on illegally imported and smuggled guns in order to commit the crimes? The homicide rates for the three countries are revealing. According to Wikipedia, Belgium had a firearms-related homicide rate of 0.33% per 100,000 residents in 2010; France had a 0.21% rate in 2010. The US had a rate of 3.43% in 2014. That means that the USA has 16 times the rate of gun-related homicide than France!

Countries like Brazil and Honduras are a completely different story. If you want to compare the USA to them in order to make it look like a peaceful place, that is a sad statement. Even then, some US cities have homicide rates that approach the levels of some of the most violent undeveloped nations in the world.

Katygirl, you have just proven my point that with most pro-gun Americans, a rational debate is impossible. You based your entire argument on a false equivalency, which renders the entire thing meaningless. But you have illustrated my point perfectly: some people actually believe that because a gun massacre occurred in France and Belgium, which have stricter gun laws than the US (France had 19,000,000 civilian-owned guns in 2007, by the way. Source: The Guardian, UK.), that just goes to show that gun control doesn't work. Meanwhile, even the most passing glance at the statistics on gun violence in France or Belgium tells a completely different story. The only thing that the attacks in Belgium and France prove is that well-financed, trained, determined terrorists can exploit criminal networks to carry out attacks anywhere in the world. However, an attack like the kind committed in Pulse could never happen in those countries, because an unhinged, lone-wolf loser like Omar Mateen would never be able to walk into a gun store and buy an assault rifle in far less time and with far less paperwork, testing, or scrutiny than he would ever require to receive a license to drive a car, then use that rifle to commit an atrocity. In France and Belgium, these kinds of attacks required money, time, planning, and preparation. As we have seen over and over again in the US, any lunatic with a grudge can get his hands on a gun and go kill people.

I could go on, but if you don't see the problems with your comparison katy, no amount of facts and evidence will ever sway you.

Last edited by TOkidd; 06-18-2016 at 04:41 PM..
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Old 06-18-2016, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,670 posts, read 8,740,385 times
Reputation: 7281
Quote:
Originally Posted by katygirl68 View Post
How do you know he didn't have connections? We haven't been told that at this point, and a gun shop owner who turned him away a few weeks ago said he tried to get body armor and when told they don't sell it, he made a phone call and started talking in a foreign language, then asked for bulk ammo. Now it could have been his wife, but it also could have been someone else.

How do I know? I'm trusting the officials who have said so. So far, nothing has come up. If it does then I will accept that.

The authorities have no reason to lie about connections, since in the past when someone has had connections it is revealed to the public.

I'm sure the cell company will have records of all phone calls made from his phone. I'm sure they have checked that already. A foreign language...ooh scary.
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Old 06-18-2016, 04:32 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,130,951 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
He went with family members on a trip organized by the NYU Centre. They believe he went with his mother.

He went twice, but it's a leap to assume that someone visiting Mecca on a trip organized by a university and NYC travel agency must be a radical or extremist.

Just because the muslims you know haven't been to mecca doesn't mean much, when millions of muslims do go to Mecca and they vary in the amount of devotion.

I wonder how many of proven Islamic Terrorists have been to mecca? Is this even a fair way to judge someone's extremism? Hmmmm. Not sure about that.

Society and religion most certainly played a part in his hating gays. Lots of " believers " in lots of religions dislike gays and gay kids grow up feeling that hatred. Some get over it and live great lives, some become self-haters.
It is a fact he frequented the club. It is a fact that his behaviour was anti-social enough that the clubbers didn't interact with him much. It is a fact that he frequented gay hook up sites. Now whether he hooked up or not, I haven't heard. However most anti-gay religious fanatics do not frequent gay clubs or hook up sites.

Gay muslims exist and gay muslims have contact and support groups. It's too bad he didn't seek them out...but maybe he really wasn't as religious as some are saying.
Good post. All muslims are expected at one point in their lives to go to Mecca. Most of them don't go around shooting people or blowing themselves up in a terrorist attack. There's a whole lot more going on with these people who are attracted to radical islam than just that they are muslim or wannabe muslims.

Outside the muslim world - there is a strong minority of individuals with anti gay sentiment. We know this living as gays every day. There is no saying that some anti-gay Christian nut wouldn't do what Mateen did. Its happened before - one guy who killed a gay patron at a bar and injured several other said he was a "Christian Soldier working for my Lord" - It will be interesting to see how linked Mateen actually was to ISIS or radical islam - it might not be as strong as we think as more details are revealed about his motives.

Last edited by fusion2; 06-18-2016 at 04:43 PM..
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Old 06-18-2016, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,670 posts, read 8,740,385 times
Reputation: 7281
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOkidd View Post
Natnasci was absolutely right that you are making a false equivalency and comparing apples to oranges. In doing so, you are proving my point perfectly that there are individuals who simply cannot have a rational conversation about this topic where logic and facts prevail. Your false equivalency is one of many deployed by many gun "culturalists" to make arguments that sound reasonable on the surface, but fall apart under scrutiny.

So let's clear up your earlier statement that gun culture was not to blame for the deaths in Belgium and France, as if to suggest that American gun culture is not the problem at all, because these things happen even in nations where rigid gun controls are in place:

So far in 2006, the US has had 140 shootings where there were at least four victims (this includes both injuries and deaths). 212 people died in these 140 separate instances. I couldn't even take the time to count the injured, but ther were about 600. President Obama has had to make, what, fifteen public statements about only the most gruesome ones during his eight-year tenure. By comparison, France has had only four fatalities as a result of mass shootings (using the same definition: where there were four or more victims in a single incident).... Between 2009-2015!!!! Your argument seems like the definition of a false equivalency. And how many gun murders does Belgium or France have in an average year, other than these extremely rare, well planned terrorist attacks which were well-financed, and relied on sophisticated networks of radicals, smugglers and individual terrorists who had, in many cases, received specialized combat training, and relied on illegally imported and smuggled guns in order to commit the crimes? The homicide rates for the three countries are revealing. According to Wikipedia, Belgium had a firearms-related homicide rate of 0.33% per 100,000 residents in 2010; France had a 0.21% rate in 210. The US had a rate of 3.43% in 2014. That means that the USA has 16 times the rate of gun-related homicide than France!

Countries like Brazil and Honduras are a completely different story. If you want to compare the USA to them in order to make it look like a peaceful place, that is a sad statement. Even then, some US cities have homicide rates that approach the levels of some of the most violent countries undeveloped nations in the world.

Katygirl, you have just proven my point that with most pro-gun Americans, a rational debate is impossible. You based your entire argument on a false equivalency, which renders the entire thing meaningless. But you have illustrated my point perfectly: some people actually believe that because a gun massacre occurred in France and Belgium, which have stricter gun laws than the US (France had 19,000,000 civilian-owned guns in 2007, by the way. Source: The Guardian, UK.), that just goes to show that gun control doesn't work. Meanwhile, even the most passing glance at the statistics on gun violence in France or Belgium tells a completely different story. The only thing that the attacks in Belgium and France prove is that well-financed, trained, determined terrorists can exploit criminal networks to carry out attacks anywhere in the world. However, an attack like the kind committed in Pulse could never happen in those countries, because a man like Omar Mateen would never be able to walk into a gun store and buy an assault rifle in far less time and with far less paperwork, testing, or scrutiny than he would ever require to receive a license to drive a car.

I could go on, but if you don't see the problems with your comparison katy, no amount of facts and evidence will ever sway you.
You said it much better than I.
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Old 06-18-2016, 04:37 PM
 
29 posts, read 19,570 times
Reputation: 66
The right will be broken down one day and Americans will have sensible gun laws. I have hope for them, there is a lot of gun nuts but also a lot of people who are sick and tired of this BS. Things will change in the U.S.
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