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Old 06-13-2016, 09:37 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,963 posts, read 27,429,742 times
Reputation: 8626

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My sense is that all of this is going to worse before it gets better.


Americans are not going to change their gun laws in a significant way.


I hate to be this blunt but if they didn't change them for 25 little first graders in Sandy Hook/Newtown they aren't going to be moved to change them any more for 50 gay adult clubbers in Orlando.


(Both crimes are equally horrific in my view - I am just being a bit cynical about public opinion here.)


The likely focus will be on extremism, fundamentalism and terrorism.


Americans have already accepted some restrictions on their freedoms since Sept. 11 2001 with the Patriot Act and other surveillance measures. (Some of which the average joe is probably unaware of.)


A few more of these (not wishful thinking, but let's be realistic) and there will likely be further measures taken.


I was thinking last night and I could see how any praise or support (either written or verbal) for extremist organizations like ISIS (maybe the KKK too) could become a chargeable offence. Kind of like using the word "bomb" at an airport or on a plane. No joking around, no second chances.


Also, surfing websites of extremist organizations could also become an offence, similar to how websites with child porn are controlled and restricted.


I know this sounds far-fetched but we'll talk again if the situation continues to worsen.
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Canada
3,928 posts, read 2,741,634 times
Reputation: 5105
I think most Americans probably have no idea how far they lag behind other countries as far as freedom is concerned. They seem willing to give up more and more freedom out of fear.

The Human Freedom Index:

Quote:
presents a broad measure of human freedom, understood as the absence of coercive constraint. It uses 76 distinct indicators of personal and economic freedom in the following areas:

■ Rule of Law
■ Security and Safety
■ Movement
■ Religion
■ Association, Assembly, and Civil Society
■ Expression
■ Relationships
■ Size of Government
■ Legal System and Property Rights
■ Access to Sound Money
■ Freedom to Trade Internationally
■ Regulation of Credit, Labor, and Business
Counties with most freedom:

1. Hong Kong
2. Switzerland
3. Finland
4. Denmark
5. New Zealand
6. Canada
7. Australia
8. Ireland
9. United Kingdom
10. Sweden

12. Germany

20. United States

28. Japan

33. France

Human Freedom Index | Cato Institute
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Old 06-13-2016, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,698 posts, read 6,553,867 times
Reputation: 8203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
My sense is that all of this is going to worse before it gets better.


Americans are not going to change their gun laws in a significant way.


I hate to be this blunt but if they didn't change them for 25 little first graders in Sandy Hook/Newtown they aren't going to be moved to change them any more for 50 gay adult clubbers in Orlando.


(Both crimes are equally horrific in my view - I am just being a bit cynical about public opinion here.)


The likely focus will be on extremism, fundamentalism and terrorism.


Americans have already accepted some restrictions on their freedoms since Sept. 11 2001 with the Patriot Act and other surveillance measures. (Some of which the average joe is probably unaware of.)


A few more of these (not wishful thinking, but let's be realistic) and there will likely be further measures taken.


I was thinking last night and I could see how any praise or support (either written or verbal) for extremist organizations like ISIS (maybe the KKK too) could become a chargeable offence. Kind of like using the word "bomb" at an airport or on a plane. No joking around, no second chances.


Also, surfing websites of extremist organizations could also become an offence, similar to how websites with child porn are controlled and restricted.


I know this sounds far-fetched but we'll talk again if the situation continues to worsen.
I've heard a lot of people make those same points. If the killing of little children doesn't change anything, nothing will. I might also make the same point about the Amish shootings of a few years ago.
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Old 06-13-2016, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,714 posts, read 8,796,725 times
Reputation: 7329
Sandy Hook has been brought up in a lot of the conversations I've heard since yesterday.

It's still early days, and I'm suspicious of the media's jump onto the ISIS angle. I have my doubts that he had any direct links to ISIS or any terrorist organization. If he had, the FBI surely would of proven this by now, since he was known to them. The fact that he was still able to legally buy guns, also points to the fact that they had nothing on him in that regard.

So, bi-polar, unstable or just plain freaked out homophobe with a myriad of issues is probably going to be what he turns out to be.

Until there is direct evidence to the contrary I'm not buying the convenient label that makes great headlines and gets people are riled up such as ISLAMIC RADICAL TERRORIST.

The US won't solve their gun problem for decades, perhaps never. As long as you have the system set up where national gun policies conflict with states rights, with a population that equates guns with freedom, and a growing uneducated lower class that has no critical thinking skills, it's only going to get worse.
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Old 06-13-2016, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
5,972 posts, read 7,341,634 times
Reputation: 3741
Unfortunately thanks to the disgusting amount of money in U.S. politics anymore, I don't think this will get resolved anytime soon.
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Old 06-13-2016, 01:22 PM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,298,114 times
Reputation: 7587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
Sandy Hook has been brought up in a lot of the conversations I've heard since yesterday.

It's still early days, and I'm suspicious of the media's jump onto the ISIS angle. I have my doubts that he had any direct links to ISIS or any terrorist organization. If he had, the FBI surely would of proven this by now, since he was known to them. The fact that he was still able to legally buy guns, also points to the fact that they had nothing on him in that regard.

So, bi-polar, unstable or just plain freaked out homophobe with a myriad of issues is probably going to be what he turns out to be.

Until there is direct evidence to the contrary I'm not buying the convenient label that makes great headlines and gets people are riled up such as ISLAMIC RADICAL TERRORIST.

The US won't solve their gun problem for decades, perhaps never. As long as you have the system set up where national gun policies conflict with states rights, with a population that equates guns with freedom, and a growing uneducated lower class that has no critical thinking skills, it's only going to get worse.
I completely agree. This guy could be Christian, Jewish or whatever, in which case it will be construed as an isolated case. People are just easily worked up when he is a Muslim, because it suits their own bias inside.
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Old 06-13-2016, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,714 posts, read 8,796,725 times
Reputation: 7329
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
I completely agree. This guy could be Christian, Jewish or whatever, in which case it will be construed as an isolated case. People are just easily worked up when he is a Muslim, because it suits their own bias inside.
"Today in Washington, FBI director James Comey gave a status report on the investigation. “So far we see no indication that this was a plot directed from outside the United States,” he said, “and we see no indication that he was part of any kind of network.”

This video shows how right wing media attempts to mitigate the LGBT connection. Unreal.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEgd9q8ugs4

Also as a side note, the host perpetuates the right wing mythology that Canada has more guns per person than the US.
This is a falsehood. The US has 3 times more guns per capita than Canada. The difference in the type of guns matter as well.
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Old 06-13-2016, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Canada
3,928 posts, read 2,741,634 times
Reputation: 5105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
This video shows how right wing media attempts to mitigate the LGBT connection. Unreal.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEgd9q8ugs4

Also as a side note, the host perpetuates the right wing mythology that Canada has more guns per person than the US. This is a falsehood. The US has 3 times more guns per capita than Canada. The difference in the type of guns matter as well.
Wow - that video is unbelievable!
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Old 06-13-2016, 03:36 PM
 
Location: Toronto
6,754 posts, read 3,801,093 times
Reputation: 4619
Default Different values ... and understanding of the word ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnirene View Post
I think most Americans probably have no idea how far they lag behind other countries as far as freedom is concerned. They seem willing to give up more and more freedom out of fear.

The Human Freedom Index:



Counties with most freedom:

1. Hong Kong
2. Switzerland
3. Finland
4. Denmark
5. New Zealand
6. Canada
7. Australia
8. Ireland
9. United Kingdom
10. Sweden

12. Germany

20. United States

28. Japan

33. France

Human Freedom Index | Cato Institute
Ex this guy gets jailed for having sex on the beach (yeah I know he had other past charges)

Florida man caught having sex on a beach gets two and a half years in jail | US news | The Guardian

while people kill unarmed people in the same state and get away with nothing.

Seems really strange to me.
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Old 06-13-2016, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Somewhere below Mason/Dixon
6,531 posts, read 7,489,771 times
Reputation: 10951
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
My sense is that all of this is going to worse before it gets better.


Americans are not going to change their gun laws in a significant way.


I hate to be this blunt but if they didn't change them for 25 little first graders in Sandy Hook/Newtown they aren't going to be moved to change them any more for 50 gay adult clubbers in Orlando.


(Both crimes are equally horrific in my view - I am just being a bit cynical about public opinion here.)


The likely focus will be on extremism, fundamentalism and terrorism.


Americans have already accepted some restrictions on their freedoms since Sept. 11 2001 with the Patriot Act and other surveillance measures. (Some of which the average joe is probably unaware of.)


A few more of these (not wishful thinking, but let's be realistic) and there will likely be further measures taken.


I was thinking last night and I could see how any praise or support (either written or verbal) for extremist organizations like ISIS (maybe the KKK too) could become a chargeable offence. Kind of like using the word "bomb" at an airport or on a plane. No joking around, no second chances.


Also, surfing websites of extremist organizations could also become an offence, similar to how websites with child porn are controlled and restricted.


I know this sounds far-fetched but we'll talk again if the situation continues to worsen.

I have read through this post and have a few thoughts on it as an American. Many of your positions are ones I have heard before from Canadians, Aussies and Europeans. Why do we allow guns after these massacres? Why do we not restrict "hate speech"? and why did we tolerate the Patriot Act after 9-11 restricting our freedom but we are unwilling to take the further steps you suggest?


1. Guns: Well this one is enshrined in our constitution and we are all brought up with guns and knowing our guaranteed freedom regarding guns. There is debate about this topic, especially involving assault weapons but overall most Americans are not willing to move much on this issue. This does not mean we are not horrified by the violence of the past 10 years or so. However many of us are aware that we have had a "gun culture" for over 200 years, and only the last 10 have been a real problem. There is something else wrong with our society that restricting a constitutional freedom will not fix. First there are so many guns already here that you will never get rid of enough of them to stop the crazies, and secondly the crazies ALWAYs find a way to do their crazy things. The real question is really why do we have so many crazies today?? What is wrong with our society and values that has brought this about? Our mental health system is more of an issue than guns are. These people need help BEFORE they go nuts. We also need to examine our values, why have we gotten this way?? Like I said it really is a rather recent trend.


2. Hate speech laws: The idea of making it illegal to criticize gays, racial groups or women also treads upon our constitutional rights. The first amendment gives us the right to speak, and the only restrictions on this is when your free speech is inciting violence. If you make a threat you go to jail, but if you say you don't like black people, or you don't like gays that is protected speech. Americans are very supportive of our first amendment, in fact I think this one is held even more dear than the 2nd amendment. Also its worth noting that the Bill of Rights really cannot be changed, attempting to do so would violate the constitution (the bill of rights was added as part of the deal to get some states to accept the constitution so it really cannot be changed). It may lead to real violence or even civil war in the US if a serious effort was made to change it. We largely accept unsavory or unpopular speech like KKK rhetoric or Nazi rhetoric in order to protect our right to speak on the issues publicly. It is widely believed in the US that if we restrict the speech of offensive groups like Nazis then its only a matter of time before the speech of everyone will in some way be restricted. If you ever see a KKK rally in the US you will usually find the people of the community ignore them, that is how we handle it. We all know its their right to speak, but we don't have to listen to them either.

3. The Patriot Act: This is unpopular in the US, most of us resent this government intrusion and its even seen as un-American. It is only a matter of time before its reversed. We over reacted to 9-11, that is obvious. The terrorist won when we restricted our own freedom in response to their violence. Very few people support any of the restrictions on our freedom brought about by the post 9-11 era.


Of course I am one person expressing my opinion of how we feel about these things but I thought I would take a stab at it. I will also say I am a rather conservative person, and I live in the Southern US so these views reflect those two facts. A firery liberal from Oregon would have a different view on these topics, but I do think my views are at least common. I know many Canadians don't think we make much sense but there are very old and deep cultural and historic reasons for us being the way we are. I hope I have done a reasonable job of explain this.
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