U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Canada
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 06-18-2016, 07:57 PM
 
14,239 posts, read 6,138,067 times
Reputation: 8877

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Good post. All muslims are expected at one point in their lives to go to Mecca. Most of them don't go around shooting people or blowing themselves up in a terrorist attack. There's a whole lot more going on with these people who are attracted to radical islam than just that they are muslim or wannabe muslims.

Outside the muslim world - there is a strong minority of individuals with anti gay sentiment. We know this living as gays every day. There is no saying that some anti-gay Christian nut wouldn't do what Mateen did. Its happened before - one guy who killed a gay patron at a bar and injured several other said he was a "Christian Soldier working for my Lord" - It will be interesting to see how linked Mateen actually was to ISIS or radical islam - it might not be as strong as we think as more details are revealed about his motives.
Isn't this type of attack exactly what the government has been warning about with ISIS? The lone wolf inspired by ISIS. He pledged allegiance to ISIS. His father has said some crazy things, even praised the Taliban. His friend joined ISIS in Syria and turned himself into a human bomb and killed some people. You have to admit, it looks like exactly what he said it was. Even if he was a conflicted gay guy, some Muslims believe all sins are forgiven if you commit jihad during Ramadan. It was Ramadan.

He texted his wife at 4:00 am to see if the attack had made the news. She responded and told him she loved him. That sounds like a planned attack for an ideology. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-18-2016, 07:59 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,168,036 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by katygirl68 View Post
Isn't this type of attack exactly what the government has been warning about with ISIS? The lone wolf inspired by ISIS. He pledged allegiance to ISIS. His father has said some crazy things, even praised the Taliban. His friend joined ISIS in Syria and turned himself into a human bomb and killed some people. You have to admit, it looks like exactly what he said it was. Even if he was a conflicted gay guy, some Muslims believe all sins are forgiven if you commit jihad during Ramadan. It was Ramadan.

He texted his wife at 4:00 am to see if the attack had made the news. She responded and told him she loved him. That sounds like a planned attack for an ideology. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.
I'm not trying to dismiss the role ISIS may have played. I've always said in this forum there are probably multiple psychological and sociological factors that can be attributed to this attack.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2016, 08:02 PM
 
14,239 posts, read 6,138,067 times
Reputation: 8877
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Well i'm bringing it up because it happens and has happened so we can't just point the finger at Muslims doing bad things to gays or to people in general. I said a minority of muslims in the world are attracted to radical islam and are attracted to becoming terrorists and blowing things and people up, I didn't say only a minority have anti gay sentiment. The majority are however peaceful.. This isn't to say Islamic dogma is creating healthy societies. Really, if you were to look at Christian dogma that isn't conducive to creating a healthy society either if you think about it. We could get rid of every single Muslim in Canada and homophobia would still be a big problem. A lot of people still don't treat us separately from our sexuality and will judge and discriminate just because of and the pink ceiling would still exist.

I posted an earlier study on how gays are treated in schools in Canada commissioned by EGALE. Its not painting a rosy picture at all.
Oh boy, here come the comparisons to Christianity. The difference is that the Christians who do this type of stuff (extremely rare) are acting against their faith even if they think differently. The Muslims who are radicalized are acting like their prophet, who tells them to make holy war and kill infidels. That many Muslims no longer act on that doesn't mean they're the religion of peace. It means most people aren't psychotic murderers. And radical Muslim attacks aren't exactly rare, are they?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2016, 08:10 PM
 
14,239 posts, read 6,138,067 times
Reputation: 8877
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I'm not trying to dismiss the role ISIS may have played. I've always said in this forum there are probably multiple psychological and sociological factors that can be attributed to this attack.
I would say that every single terrorist attack or mass shooting is attributable to multiple factors. Normal people want to be happy and love people. Psychotic murderers want to kill people, and if they can do it in the name of God or Allah, then it gives them a sick, twisted purpose.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2016, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,168,036 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by katygirl68 View Post
Oh boy, here come the comparisons to Christianity. The difference is that the Christians who do this type of stuff (extremely rare) are acting against their faith even if they think differently. The Muslims who are radicalized are acting like their prophet, who tells them to make holy war and kill infidels. That many Muslims no longer act on that doesn't mean they're the religion of peace. It means most people aren't psychotic murderers. And radical Muslim attacks aren't exactly rare, are they?
Extremely rare that Christians have discriminated, gay bashed and murdered gays. You really want to make that statement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katygirl68 View Post
I would say that every single terrorist attack or mass shooting is attributable to multiple factors. Normal people want to be happy and love people. Psychotic murderers want to kill people, and if they can do it in the name of God or Allah, then it gives them a sick, twisted purpose.
Yes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2016, 08:16 PM
 
14,239 posts, read 6,138,067 times
Reputation: 8877
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Extremely rare that Christians have gay bashed and murdered gays. You really want to make that statement?
So now we're talking about gay bashing? I thought we were talking about murder. And even if people gay bash or murder gays, how many of them are doing it in the name of Christ? And if they are, they aren't behaving like Christians, because Christ says they aren't to judge people. And he certainly never directed them to kill people. I'd say the majority of gay bashing is done by males who are either conflicted or stupid and psychotic. It's definitely not always because of religion.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2016, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,168,036 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
No one is pointing a finger just at Muslims. I guess you havent been reading my posts in this thread. In this case the shooter was Muslim. Had this been a Christian that did this, would you say " Muslims do it too, so we can't just point the finger at Christians." ?? In fact if you look at previous pages people that are here defending Muslims had no problem throwing Christians into the mix. For the record I am not a Christian, so i am not interested in defending that religion either.

I;m glad you said it not me. Please tell me how are Islamic dogma is not creating healthy societies?

Interesting comment. Wasn't Canada a Christian society at one point, didn't Christianity help create the Canada we have now? Just curious why you would say that. I think Christianity has done a lot of damage in the world, but after you wrote Islam didn't create healthy societies did you need to throw that in there to balance things out?
I was responding to your last post - not all posts you've posted in this thread. I'm just trying to highlight the fact that if we want to make this JUST about muslims and just about the fact that this was the largest mass shooting in American history than yes, it was committed by a muslim based on what appears to be multiple influences/motives.

Now if we want to expand to religious dogma - many religions or their followers haven't had a storied past when it comes to treatment of gay citizens. Sure a mass shooting killing 50 people is horrible, but for many gays so is living a day to day life. Even in our Canada we have now. Would I choose the society we live in vs most others - yes but we are living in lala land if we think that we don't have a long way to go to improve the general condition of gays and many others groups in this country. I tend to look at our most progressive laws and progressive aspects of society based on secularism as opposed to Christian influence. Secularism isn't only found in Christian societies btw.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2016, 08:32 PM
 
3,156 posts, read 2,078,581 times
Reputation: 1256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
False equivalency attempt. Just because both incidents involved guns doesn't negate than one happened in a country with a strong gun culture.

The difference is the Paris shootings were orchestrated by people with an ideology who planned and plotted their attack in a group. Their shootings were directed at a citizenry, from all backgrounds. Targeted for sure, but not in the same way as the shooting in Florida.
Is not a false equivalency, simply Paris and Belgium do not fit your preconceived notions so you are trying to spin it....what happened in Orlando has nothing to do with gun culture...the guy was a security guard and had even special gun permits.....enough said.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOkidd View Post
Natnasci was absolutely right that you are making a false equivalency and comparing apples to oranges. In doing so, you are proving my point perfectly that there are individuals who simply cannot have a rational conversation about this topic where logic and facts prevail. Your false equivalency is one of many deployed by many gun "culturalists" to make arguments that sound reasonable on the surface, but fall apart under scrutiny.

So let's take a closer look at your earlier statement that gun culture has no significance at all in mass shootings like the one at Pulse, because the same kind of thing happened in Paris and Brussels. You seem to suggest that because these things have happened in nations where more rigid civilian gun ownership laws are in place, the ubiquity of guns in America is not the problem at all.

So far in 2016, the US has had 140 shootings where there were at least four victims (this includes both injuries and deaths). 212 people died in these 140 separate instances. I couldn't even take the time to count the injured, but ther were about 600. President Obama has had to make, what, fifteen public statements about only the most gruesome gun massacres during his eight-year tenure. By comparison, France has had only four fatalities as a result of mass shootings (using the same definition: where there were four or more victims in a single incident).... Between 2009-2015!!!! Your argument seems like the definition of a false equivalency. And how many gun murders does Belgium or France have in an average year, other than these extremely rare, well planned terrorist attacks which were well-financed, and relied on sophisticated networks of radicals, smugglers and individual terrorists who had, in many cases, received specialized combat training, and relied on illegally imported and smuggled guns in order to commit the crimes? The homicide rates for the three countries are revealing. According to Wikipedia, Belgium had a firearms-related homicide rate of 0.33% per 100,000 residents in 2010; France had a 0.21% rate in 2010. The US had a rate of 3.43% in 2014. That means that the USA has 16 times the rate of gun-related homicide than France!

Countries like Brazil and Honduras are a completely different story. If you want to compare the USA to them in order to make it look like a peaceful place, that is a sad statement. Even then, some US cities have homicide rates that approach the levels of some of the most violent undeveloped nations in the world.

Katygirl, you have just proven my point that with most pro-gun Americans, a rational debate is impossible. You based your entire argument on a false equivalency, which renders the entire thing meaningless. But you have illustrated my point perfectly: some people actually believe that because a gun massacre occurred in France and Belgium, which have stricter gun laws than the US (France had 19,000,000 civilian-owned guns in 2007, by the way. Source: The Guardian, UK.), that just goes to show that gun control doesn't work. Meanwhile, even the most passing glance at the statistics on gun violence in France or Belgium tells a completely different story. The only thing that the attacks in Belgium and France prove is that well-financed, trained, determined terrorists can exploit criminal networks to carry out attacks anywhere in the world. However, an attack like the kind committed in Pulse could never happen in those countries, because an unhinged, lone-wolf loser like Omar Mateen would never be able to walk into a gun store and buy an assault rifle in far less time and with far less paperwork, testing, or scrutiny than he would ever require to receive a license to drive a car, then use that rifle to commit an atrocity. In France and Belgium, these kinds of attacks required money, time, planning, and preparation. As we have seen over and over again in the US, any lunatic with a grudge can get his hands on a gun and go kill people.

I could go on, but if you don't see the problems with your comparison katy, no amount of facts and evidence will ever sway you.

Actually you are the proof that a rational gun control conversation with rabid antis is impossible...as much as I disagree with the NRA on many issues I start to see their points about not giving up an inch because it is clear what the ideal end game is for the anti gun agenda.....the amount of ignorance about firearms and fact twisting showed by the antis is truly nauseating......the US is a more violent society than France or Belgium so is Brazil, period...the vast majority of gun crimes occur within ghettos and gangs, the US is the largest market for illegal drugs...talk about false equivalence!!! Law abiding gun permit holders do not commit crimes....do you get that??

A "lone wolf" can get organized as well...

Omar Mateen could have as easily happened in Canada.....if he had a permit to buy a "restricted" weapon like an AR-15 and you can bet he could have got one.


These guys live in Canada not in Texas


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7NEK_29KiE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At0GIqbRIN8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkP2lAeZAIA

Canada gun culture


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_RFKfbGcXE


Stop talking about something you do not know nothing.......

Last edited by saturno_v; 06-18-2016 at 09:00 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2016, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,168,036 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by katygirl68 View Post
So now we're talking about gay bashing? I thought we were talking about murder. And even if people gay bash or murder gays, how many of them are doing it in the name of Christ? And if they are, they aren't behaving like Christians, because Christ says they aren't to judge people. And he certainly never directed them to kill people. I'd say the majority of gay bashing is done by males who are either conflicted or stupid and psychotic. It's definitely not always because of religion.
I'm talking about generalized homophobia.. If you want to keep it about just murder there are still a plethora of examples of gays killed by Christians or gays just killed by people in general. In the religiously inspired cases, they actually distort their religion and enact judgement and actually break the very tenets of their religion by doing what they do. I agree with you, religion isn't the only influence on hate though. Totally, absolutely and unequivocally agree with that. I'm just highlighting that Islam isn't the only religion or entity in the world that has a hate on for gays and we shouldn't forget that and conveniently use one example and put all the crosshairs on Radical Islam.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2016, 08:58 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,817 posts, read 4,456,857 times
Reputation: 3268
Personally I hate guns. I have had them pulled on me, I have had the vehicle I was in shot at. I know people that have been shot, and I have seen their wounds. I know quite a few people that have been killed with guns. I feel uncomfortable and nervous when I am around some one that I know is strapped, even if its just for protection. By the way none of this was here in Canada. I have never even as much as heard a gun shot here.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Canada
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top