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Old 06-20-2016, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,962 posts, read 27,416,532 times
Reputation: 8626

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
I grew up Catholic as well, and I do understand the difference between doctrine issued and doctrine followed.

My point is that I didn't have to dig. I did say it depends on where you are in the world. The church seems perfectly fine being moderate and extreme in it's views on gay people, as long as the audience stays.

Again, it's the SAME Catholic Church.
I don't defend the Catholic church for its teachings and actions that I think are wrong-headed or harmful, or make excuses for them.
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Old 06-20-2016, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,962 posts, read 27,416,532 times
Reputation: 8626
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post

HOWEVER if you are suggesting, that this high school kid somehow knew that AT THE TIME OF THE ATTACKS that he knew it was islamic terrorism before anyone else, then I'm kind of at a loss for words. ( not for long though )

Wanna bet? This kid was about 15 years old in 2001.


What do you think the atmosphere was like in a high school in Florida on the morning of Sept. 11?


His classmates likely said stuff like "It's the Arabs/Muslims/Camel Jockeys!", whatever...


Everyone was thinking the same thing.


But note that this kid in addition to cheering as the second tower came down, also (falsely) boasted that Osama Ben Laden was his uncle, and he had taught him how to use weapons, etc.


He was well informed enough to know who Ben Laden was (most of his classmates likely did not until later that day, or learned from him).


No one is suggesting that this kid was "in" on the plot, but when that second building went down, he knew as well as any 15-year-old in the country that it wasn't another pilot who'd lost his way.
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Old 06-20-2016, 12:00 PM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,292,483 times
Reputation: 7587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I assume this is not primarily directed at me. As you know, I think much the same way. I just don't think people should be making excuses or exceptions for themselves (or other people) just because "it's their religion". Regardless of the religion.
No, it was not directly at you personally.


I was directly at those who think terrorism is primarily the fault of Islam and the Muslim people, and who is too lazy to find out why terrorism rose in those areas in the first place.


One of Al Qaeda's philosophy is that the mass bombing in western societies was not meant to just take civilian lives, but to let western voters and governments suffer the same pain middle easterners suffer under western invasion or "intervention". I don't condone any terrorist groups because killing civilians is always wrong, but they do have a point in this. The thing with the west is people in generally don't really care about lives lost elsewhere, and very few actually pay attention to how much suffering those wars have brought to the Arab world. It is ironic that the unjustified war killed far more innocent lives in those Muslim countries (without solving any problem) than terrorism has cause in western societies, probably by a magnitude of 100 times or more, but apparently the latter receive far more attention and criticism than the wars.


Do Muslim civilian lives not matter? In condemning terrorism and providing support to those who lost loved ones, voters in western countries should think about it on a deeper level: should their government be held accountable for such tragedies? Politicians such as Ron Paul kept talking about it, unfortunately most fell to deaf ears and Americans keep voting for warmongering machines such as Obama and likely Clinton later this year. And they expect terrorism to stop?


May I ask, in what world Bush Jr shouldn't be prosecuted as a war criminal? Everyone including himself knows it was a wrong war to start. Bush did apologize for the mistake, funny thing is the apologized to American soldiers for losing their lives, not tens of thousands of lost lives in Iraq and Afghanistan due to his stupid wars. So does "American interest" trump everything in the world?


War on terror? Who started terror in the first place? As far as I know, NATO is far more of a terrorist group than ISIS ever can be.
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Old 06-20-2016, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Canada
3,926 posts, read 2,739,423 times
Reputation: 5105
Today is World Refugee Day. Here are links to some of the stories that appeared in my Twitter feeds today.

https://www.opencanada.org/features/...nadas-history/

Project helps Syrian refugees in Toronto jumpstart careers - Toronto - CBC News

Oakville Community Foundation doles out $60,000 to help Syrian refugees living in Oakville

How Canadians are making a difference in the Syrian refugee crisis - Canadian Living

Refugees pack job fair as assistance cut-off looms - Ottawa - CBC News

Syrian doctor says physicians need to be aware of refugees' special needs - British Columbia - CBC News

Manitoba’s Islamic and indigenous communities come together

World Refugee Day in Winnipeg brings together refugees, immigrants, Indigenous people - Manitoba - CBC News

The first link provides some historical context to Canadian attitudes, both political and private, towards refugees. The remainder of the links show the current status of some of the efforts to integrate the Syrian refugees into Canadian society.
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Old 06-20-2016, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,962 posts, read 27,416,532 times
Reputation: 8626
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
No, it was not directly at you personally.


I was directly at those who think terrorism is primarily the fault of Islam and the Muslim people, and who is too lazy to find out why terrorism rose in those areas in the first place.


One of Al Qaeda's philosophy is that the mass bombing in western societies was not meant to just take civilian lives, but to let western voters and governments suffer the same pain middle easterners suffer under western invasion or "intervention". I don't condone any terrorist groups because killing civilians is always wrong, but they do have a point in this. The thing with the west is people in generally don't really care about lives lost elsewhere, and very few actually pay attention to how much suffering those wars have brought to the Arab world. It is ironic that the unjustified war killed far more innocent lives in those Muslim countries (without solving any problem) than terrorism has cause in western societies, probably by a magnitude of 100 times or more, but apparently the latter receive far more attention and criticism than the wars.


Do Muslim civilian lives not matter? In condemning terrorism and providing support to those who lost loved ones, voters in western countries should think about it on a deeper level: should their government be held accountable for such tragedies? Politicians such as Ron Paul kept talking about it, unfortunately most fell to deaf ears and Americans keep voting for warmongering machines such as Obama and likely Clinton later this year. And they expect terrorism to stop?


May I ask, in what world Bush Jr shouldn't be prosecuted as a war criminal? Everyone including himself knows it was a wrong war to start. Bush did apologize for the mistake, funny thing is the apologized to American soldiers for losing their lives, not tens of thousands of lost lives in Iraq and Afghanistan due to his stupid wars. So does "American interest" trump everything in the world?


War on terror? Who started terror in the first place? As far as I know, NATO is far more of a terrorist group than ISIS ever can be.
And the crap in the Middle East goes back a lot further than the US's mid 20th century rise as a global superpower. About 100 years or maybe more to the time when the British and the French started taking an "interest" in the region. Some might even go back to the Crusades, but that might be pushing it...
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Old 06-20-2016, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,710 posts, read 8,789,429 times
Reputation: 7324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
When have you heard a Catholic bishop in Canada (or any western country) say in public that homosexuality is a "mortal" sin?
Standing on the altar, blog posts, or giving interviews? Mortal sin, or sin? Well, adultery is a mortal sin, and the church won't recognize same sex marriage, so gays are committing adultery in their eyes, so yes, the do say homosexuality is a mortal sin.

In regards to gay people...and he is Cardinal.

"Wuerl noted that "to condemn any sin is not discrimination against the person who commits the sin" and that "disagreement is not discrimination."

Archbishop Joseph Kurtz, president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) said,

..."Kurtz condemned the government for allowing gay "marriage": "It is profoundly immoral and unjust for the government to declare that two people of the same sex can constitute a marriage."

"Today the Court is wrong again," the archbishop concluded.?

A few bishops pipe up in the article.

"However, Archbishop Chaput added an ominous prediction to his post. "The surprise will come as ordinary people begin to experience, firsthand and painfully, the impact of today's action on everything they thought they knew about marriage, family life, our laws and our social institutions." He referred to children and parents suffering "the debris of today's decision."

Even IF the church didn't say homosexuality is a sin, saying that two gay people getting married is going to cause ' debris " isn't exactly a loving statement.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/a-...arriage-ruling
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Old 06-20-2016, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,962 posts, read 27,416,532 times
Reputation: 8626
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
Standing on the altar, blog posts, or giving interviews? Mortal sin, or sin? Well, adultery is a mortal sin, and the church won't recognize same sex marriage, so gays are committing adultery in their eyes, so yes, the do say homosexuality is a mortal sin.

In regards to gay people...and he is Cardinal.

"Wuerl noted that "to condemn any sin is not discrimination against the person who commits the sin" and that "disagreement is not discrimination."

Archbishop Joseph Kurtz, president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) said,

..."Kurtz condemned the government for allowing gay "marriage": "It is profoundly immoral and unjust for the government to declare that two people of the same sex can constitute a marriage."

"Today the Court is wrong again," the archbishop concluded.?

A few bishops pipe up in the article.

"However, Archbishop Chaput added an ominous prediction to his post. "The surprise will come as ordinary people begin to experience, firsthand and painfully, the impact of today's action on everything they thought they knew about marriage, family life, our laws and our social institutions." He referred to children and parents suffering "the debris of today's decision."

Even IF the church didn't say homosexuality is a sin, saying that two gay people getting married is going to cause ' debris " isn't exactly a loving statement.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/a-...arriage-ruling
You *are* quite adept at mental gymnastics, my friends!


Anyway, again... you won't hear me defending these guys or asking people to be "undertstanding" towards them...
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Old 06-20-2016, 12:24 PM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,292,483 times
Reputation: 7587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
And the crap in the Middle East goes back a lot further than the US's mid 20th century rise as a global superpower. About 100 years or maybe more to the time when the British and the French started taking an "interest" in the region. Some might even go back to the Crusades, but that might be pushing it...
Yep, agree. Roughly 1918 when WWI ended I suppose, when all the lies and broken promises started.


This is why I always argue it is the western countries that are creating and then inviting terrorism. First the British and the French, then largely America. They never give the ME a chance to be a land of independence and prosperity. Both the Taliban and Al Qaeda are partially funded by the US government for whatever reason they had back then, but you can't always fully control a terrorist group, can you. Sometimes they bite back.


The truth is, westerns powers WANT a fragmented and often bickering ME. If tomorrow all Arab countries decided to unit into one country (not that it can happen), the US etc. would not tolerate it. However, it is hard to strike a good balance between regional conflicts and total chaos/terrorism.


Just leave the region alone. But petrodollar is too important, isn't it.
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Old 06-20-2016, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,695 posts, read 6,551,110 times
Reputation: 8203
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Yep, agree. Roughly 1918 when WWI ended I suppose, when all the lies and broken promises started.


This is why I always argue it is the western countries that are creating and then inviting terrorism. First the British and the French, then largely America. They never give the ME a chance to be a land of independence and prosperity.


The truth is, westerns powers WANT a fragmented and often bickering ME. If tomorrow all Arab countries decided to unit into one country (not that it can happen), the US etc. would not tolerate it. However, it is hard to strike a good balance between regional conflicts and total chaos/terrorism.


Just leave the region alone. But petrodollar is too important, isn't it.
Yup. I agree completely.
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Old 06-20-2016, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,710 posts, read 8,789,429 times
Reputation: 7324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Wanna bet? This kid was about 15 years old in 2001.


What do you think the atmosphere was like in a high school in Florida on the morning of Sept. 11?


His classmates likely said stuff like "It's the Arabs/Muslims/Camel Jockeys!", whatever...


Everyone was thinking the same thing.


But note that this kid in addition to cheering as the second tower came down, also (falsely) boasted that Osama Ben Laden was his uncle, and he had taught him how to use weapons, etc.


He was well informed enough to know who Ben Laden was (most of his classmates likely did not until later that day, or learned from him).


No one is suggesting that this kid was "in" on the plot, but when that second building went down, he knew as well as any 15-year-old in the country that it wasn't another pilot who'd lost his way.
Acajack, sounds like you are jumping on the bandwagon.

About his cheering.

"The recollections of Mateen’s actions could not be independently verified, and the memories could be clouded by the years that have passed. But similar versions were detailed in separate interviews. As the snapshot in time, the recollections appear to offer yet another stitch in the wider tapestry of Mateen’s life and views before Sunday’s rampage, which included his pledge of loyalty to the Islamic State during a call to police during the standoff.

In an interview, Robert Zirkle, then a freshman at Martin County High School, said he saw Mateen excited and making fun of how America was being attacked on 9/11. “He was making plane noises on the bus, acting like he was running into a building,” Zirkle recalled. “I don’t really know if he was doing it because he was being taught some of that stuff at home or just doing it for attention because he didn’t have a lot of friends.

“Before 9/11 happened, we were pretty straight. We all rode the same bus. We weren’t really close friends, but friends at least a little,” he added, noting that Mateen attended the Spectrum Alternative School, a separate campus in Stuart for students with poor grades or behavioral issues."

All this suggest to me a disturbed child, who may or may not of cheered as the plane hit.

If he did, which is in doubt, I still find it difficult to believe that he connected it with Islamic terrorists. It took two weeks for the FBI to connect it to al-Quaeda.
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