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Old 06-12-2016, 10:00 PM
 
Location: Alberta, Canada
2,178 posts, read 1,755,788 times
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As per a suggestion in the Condolences thread, I'm starting this thread to discuss Canadians' (and others) thoughts on the Orlando shooting.

To kick things off, I'm reminded of a message I got from a colleague earlier today. Paraphrased, it was "Is it terrorism? Is it hatred? The two are not mutually exclusive, but they can be." An interesting point, I thought: did the shooter do what he did because he was Muslim and thus, hated gays; or did he do what he did because he hated gays, and just happened to be Muslim? Which latter point caused me to wonder: what if the Westboro Baptist Church was behind this? Would it be terrorism then, or a hate crime? Or both?

Or was this guy simply a lone nut, like Charles Whitman or Brenda Ann Spencer; neither of whom were really motivated by anything, and who selected targets more for ease of killing than for any ideology?

So many questions. Let's discuss.
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Old 06-12-2016, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Toronto
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I honestly think its both.. Clearly it was an act of terrorism.. It was designed to terrorize a nation and probably a set of values.. It also was very targeted so I think it was designed to attack a certain group of people and as such a hate driven crime. In this case gays. Facts are going to start unravelling as time goes on. According to the father of Omar Mateen - he was motivated by a gay kiss and not religion (seems far fetched as he had to have been exposed to homosexuality living in Florida). Something caused him to go off the deep end in the worst possible way.

Orlando Gunman's Father Says Son Was Upset By Gay Kiss, Not Motivated By Religion

In any event, we'll find out more about what motivated him. Naturally ISIS will be happy to take responsibility for influencing this simply because he is muslim - but it could be more hate motivated/personally driven. Who knows, he could have been wrestling with his own sexuality and felt suppressed by his religion and by societal/family demands. It appears he was an angry man, what fomented that anger....

Looking back at McVeigh in the 90's - even though it wasn't externally influenced terrorism - it was terrorism, it was hate. I guess the important thing when all is said and done is how do we respond as a society. What good can we make of this as terrible as it was, sometimes terrible things inspire change.

Last edited by fusion2; 06-12-2016 at 10:20 PM..
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Old 06-12-2016, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,699 posts, read 8,498,191 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post
As per a suggestion in the Condolences thread, I'm starting this thread to discuss Canadians' (and others) thoughts on the Orlando shooting.

To kick things off, I'm reminded of a message I got from a colleague earlier today. Paraphrased, it was "Is it terrorism? Is it hatred? The two are not mutually exclusive, but they can be." An interesting point, I thought: did the shooter do what he did because he was Muslim and thus, hated gays; or did he do what he did because he hated gays, and just happened to be Muslim? Which latter point caused me to wonder: what if the Westboro Baptist Church was behind this? Would it be terrorism then, or a hate crime? Or both?

So many questions. Let's discuss.
If the Westboro Baptist church did this it would be terrorism and hatred, just as it was last night. Indeed the vast majority of terrorism is at its heart, a hate crime, it's just more obvious when it's a group we can better understand the hatred and dehumanizing of. The fact of the matter is this man's religious notions were not tangential to the act, right before he did this he called the police and made it rather explicit that he was motivated by the violent Salafist ideology of ISIL. He wasn't just an ordinary Muslim! We don't ask whether or not the terrorists who shot up the Bataclan were maybe just people who hated rock music and happened to be Muslim, it's clear to all that they are intolerant of such cultural practices because of their radical ideology. The chicken and egg of the thing is a bit pointless.
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Old 06-12-2016, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Canada
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His ex-wife claims the shooter was bi-polar. I heard on CNN that his insurance broker father has made some strange comments on YouTube e.g. wanting to become President of Afghanistan.

So neither father nor son may be playing with a full deck. If you add exposure to Islamic terrorists to that...
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Old 06-12-2016, 10:59 PM
 
Location: Canada
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I read this article some months ago: How terrorists use ‘jihotties’ to lure lonely hearts online

Quote:
The propaganda and manipulation used to lure these individuals can be extremely effective, even with those who wouldn’t usually be inclined to engage with the so-called Islamic State.
I couldn't help but think that similar techniques could be used to manipulate anyone, even a non-Muslim, who is mentally unstable, angry at the world and suicidal, to commit a terrorist act and leave this world with a bang. Americans seem to think that if the keep Musims out of their country, they will be safe. I don't think so.

At the bottom of article is an interesting video:

Quote:
Last March 16X9 found out just how easy it is to connect with such recruiters: They caught one on camera as he coached an undercover producer on how to leave Canada, travel through Turkey and across the Syrian border where he said he would be waiting.

The man thought he was speaking with a 15-year-old Canadian girl from Edmonton.

“It’s very easy for a young girl in Canada to set up a Twitter account, gain this kind of access to fighters overseas and be in direct communication with them very quickly,” said Amarnath Amarasingam, a postdoctoral fellow at Dalhousie University and an expert on foreign fighters, and told 16×9 at the time.
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Old 06-13-2016, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,955 posts, read 27,377,612 times
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First of a couple of posts on this.


Yes, it IS a gun control issue regardless of how many ways certain people want to spin it.


This guy did have a permit to buy anything he wanted but should he have had one (even if required for his job) if he had been on an FBI watch list? And he also exhibited erratic behaviour according to people in his entourage.


The lack of proper checks and balances on guns, who buys them, and how powerful they can be, and how certain aspects of a person's background are not linked to the ability to purchase guns... all issues relevant to this tragedy.
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Old 06-13-2016, 08:41 AM
 
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I don't think one gets to accuse him of both: homophobia AND religious extremism. It is too convenient.
We just don't know yet. Maybe it has nothing to do with either. The guy is just crazy.
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Old 06-13-2016, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,955 posts, read 27,377,612 times
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I think it can be both.


Religious fanaticism does entail in some cases opposition to certain lifestyles. Many Christian religions are anti-gay or at least gay-skeptical. Of course, Islam in all but the most exceptional instances is not very favourable to gays.


Unless I am mistaken, the guy who was arrested near LA Pride did not have any affiliation with Islam. It remains to be seen what his motives were and if they were related to any type of religious beliefs.


BTW, eventually we will have to deal with the question of whether or not we still want to give religions a "free pass" when it comes to beliefs that can run contrary to our anti-discrimination laws.


At the moment, a lot of stuff that could be called discriminatory (against gays and women especially) is "tolerated" under the guise of religious freedom.


Has the time come to state very clearly that you can't use the religious freedom principle in order to say things or do things that would otherwise be considered illegal?
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Old 06-13-2016, 08:53 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,276,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post

BTW, eventually we will have to deal with the question of whether or not we still want to give religions a "free pass" when it comes to beliefs that can run contrary to our anti-discrimination laws.


At the moment, a lot of stuff that could be called discriminatory (against gays and women especially) is "tolerated" under the guise of religious freedom.


Has the time come to state very clearly that you can't use the religious freedom principle in order to say things or do things that would otherwise be considered illegal?
I agree. People should have to freedom to believe anything they want, but such right shouldn't give them the freedom to advertise hate.


At the same time, it is not just about Islam. We should ban Christians from saying people who don't believe in Jesus would end up in hell as well. It is hate too.
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Old 06-13-2016, 09:28 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,955 posts, read 27,377,612 times
Reputation: 8612
Another comment:


If we consider the Ottawa and St-Jean-sur-Richelieu incidents as terrorism, then this is most certainly terrorism as well.


This guy was a mentally unstable lone wolf who self-identified with ISIS.


So it's very similar, the only difference was that he was able to get his hands on much more damaging weaponry than that two Canadian guys were. And he obviously knew how to use it.


That's why there is such a big difference in the level of carnage.
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