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Old 12-22-2016, 11:58 AM
 
Location: New York Area
15,921 posts, read 6,267,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnirene View Post
Well it certainly has among Americans such as yourself. I can't imagine choosing to live my life with hatred and fear. Sounds like a miserable way to live to me.

Brand_New, I hope you get your visa. Your age is the perfect time to explore options.
Why it it a "miserable" way to live to not want to import Middle East strife that goes back thousands of years to the New World?
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Old 12-22-2016, 12:00 PM
 
50 posts, read 29,353 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
The Berlin truck attack, and the government's release of the Tunisian who seems to be responsible, isn't something to trigger "hatred and fear?"
No, it was a truly, truly despicable act but I'm not going to walk around in fear. It doesn't do me or anyone else any good, and allows things like the Snooper charter to impinge on my privacy under the guise of anti terror surveillance.

I grew up in a town called Warrington where two boys were killed in a terrorist attack by the IRA. I'm capable of seeing/hearing Irish people without being scared.

Spreading fear is exactly what terrorists want.
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Old 12-22-2016, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Toronto
6,754 posts, read 3,784,549 times
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Well at least in Toronto... we could benefit from having more people wearing fascinators, more high tea spots, a little more Adele, a lot more theatre goers and some London fashion inspiration ... so welcome !
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Old 12-22-2016, 12:03 PM
 
Location: New York Area
15,921 posts, read 6,267,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brand_new View Post
No, it was a truly, truly despicable act but I'm not going to walk around in fear. It doesn't do me or anyone else any good, and allows things like the Snooper charter to impinge on my privacy under the guise of anti terror surveillance.

I grew up in a town called Warrington where two boys were killed in a terrorist attack by the IRA. I'm capable of seeing/hearing Irish people without being scared.

Spreading fear is exactly what terrorists want.
I may not live in fear but I don't want to import to the Western Hemisphere someone elses war.
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Old 12-22-2016, 12:21 PM
 
50 posts, read 29,353 times
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I don't want to see terrorist atrocities either, but stoking up fears over immigrants is a dangerous path that the UK is going down (and one would have to say played a contributing factor in the murder of MP Jo Cox.

Either way, not really a point in leaving the EU as the UK has absolute, full control over non-EU immigration
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Old 12-22-2016, 03:46 PM
 
2,562 posts, read 2,180,745 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brand_new View Post
I don't want to see terrorist atrocities either, but stoking up fears over immigrants is a dangerous path that the UK is going down (and one would have to say played a contributing factor in the murder of MP Jo Cox.

Either way, not really a point in leaving the EU as the UK has absolute, full control over non-EU immigration
I agree. Throughout history, any society that chooses to actively close its gates on the world has also found itself left behind by the rest of the world. The moment when one begins to think that one is better than the rest of the world that one no longer needs the world is also the moment when one initiates one's own self-imposed decline. I don't think there's been any case where a nationalist "closed door" policy has been proven to increase a country's relative competitiveness or its citizens livelihoods in the long run - often quite the reverse.

18th century Ottoman Empire
19th century Qing Dynasty China
1930s Nazi Germany
1930s Fascist Italy
Post 1979 Iran under the Islamic Republic
1970s USSR pre-Gorbachev
1960s Communist China under Mao
1950s to 2000s Communist Cuba under Fidel Castro

All of the above examples have espoused some form of "us vs. them", "putting ABC people first", "we are the greatest" nationalist rhetoric as a way to maintain political power for a particular ruling government or party or strongman, and most have brought only short-lived benefits to its citizens and long-term damages to their respective societies that are still being felt today. History doesn't always repeat itself, but it does provide sobering lessons for all of us.

Last edited by bostonkid123; 12-22-2016 at 03:57 PM..
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Old 12-22-2016, 03:55 PM
 
Location: New York Area
15,921 posts, read 6,267,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
I agree. Throughout history, any society that chooses to actively close its gates on the world has also found itself left behind by the rest of the world. The moment when one begins to think that one is better than the rest of the world that one no longer needs the world is also the moment when one initiates one's own self-imposed decline. I don't think there's been any case where a nationalist "closed door" policy has been proven to increase a country's relative competitiveness or its citizens livelihoods in the long run - often quite the reverse.

18th century Ottoman Empire
19th century Qing Dynasty China
1930s Nazi Germany
1930s Fascist Italy
Post 1979 Iran under the Islamic Republic
1970s USSR pre-Gorbachev
1960s Communist China under Mao
1950s to 2000s Communist Cuba under Fidel Castro

History doesn't always repeat itself, but it does provide sobering lessons for all of us.
Letting the barbarians in didn't help Rome though.
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Old 12-22-2016, 04:04 PM
 
2,562 posts, read 2,180,745 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Letting the barbarians in didn't help Rome though.
Rome let barbarians in? When? Where? Which Roman Consul or Senator enacted laws that brought in barbarians? Last time I checked the Roman Empire waged an ongoing, century-long war to keep the German barbarians out of its Northern frontier, starting from the days of Augustus Caesar and throughout the 5 Good Emperors and Marcus Aurelius.

In many ways, the fall of Rome was inevitable - it grew to such a proportion that it became logistically impossible to manage - its militaries spread thin and its bureaucracy and politics corrupt to the core. After nearly 800 years of continuous rule, Rome collapsed under its own weight because it was a necessity.
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Old 12-22-2016, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
19,520 posts, read 20,908,427 times
Reputation: 13856
Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
Rome let barbarians in? When? Where? Which Roman Consul or Senator enacted laws that brought in barbarians? Last time I checked the Roman Empire waged an ongoing, century-long war to keep the German barbarians out of its Northern frontier, starting from the days of Augustus Caesar and throughout the 5 Good Emperors and Marcus Aurelius.

In many ways, the fall of Rome was inevitable - it grew to such a proportion that it became logistically impossible to manage - its militaries spread thin and its bureaucracy and politics corrupt to the core. After nearly 800 years of continuous rule, Rome collapsed under its own weight because it was a necessity.
Don't forget the Christians. They helped, too.
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Old 12-23-2016, 07:20 AM
 
Location: New York Area
15,921 posts, read 6,267,579 times
Reputation: 12380
Default Bailing Out Europe From Refined Irresponsibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
I agree. Throughout history, any society that chooses to actively close its gates on the world has also found itself left behind by the rest of the world. The moment when one begins to think that one is better than the rest of the world that one no longer needs the world is also the moment when one initiates one's own self-imposed decline. I don't think there's been any case where a nationalist "closed door" policy has been proven to increase a country's relative competitiveness or its citizens livelihoods in the long run - often quite the reverse.

18th century Ottoman Empire
19th century Qing Dynasty China
1930s Nazi Germany
1930s Fascist Italy
Post 1979 Iran under the Islamic Republic
1970s USSR pre-Gorbachev
1960s Communist China under Mao
1950s to 2000s Communist Cuba under Fidel Castro

All of the above examples have espoused some form of "us vs. them", "putting ABC people first", "we are the greatest" nationalist rhetoric as a way to maintain political power for a particular ruling government or party or strongman, and most have brought only short-lived benefits to its citizens and long-term damages to their respective societies that are still being felt today. History doesn't always repeat itself, but it does provide sobering lessons for all of us.
This is my second response to this post. There's no "one size fits all" on door opening and closing. It really depends on the culture and quality of people that want to come in.

Back in the late 1800's and early 1900's the U.S. had no social safety net. In fact to even call the Federal government a government would be kind. State governments had a bit more ability to provide a safety net but overall if you didn't earn your keep you didn't eat. It was just that simple. So the people that came were willing to work themselves to the bone and in many cases by exploited. It was still an improvement from life in Europe, where intolerance and arbitrary government authority was added tot he mix.

After WW II the safety net was a bit more complete but still work, sponsorship and language requirements tilted towards better immigrants. And since the U.S.'s safety net is nothing like Europe's cradle to grave social welfare (Canada is somewhere in between) we get better immigrants. It is Europe where people like the Tunisian truck driver go from repeated jailings to short, violent spells of freedom.

In short while Brexit may not have been directly related to immigration, the "leave" vote was no doubt influenced by Europe's immigration time bomb. My worry is that the U.S. and Canada may have to bail Europe out again from its refined, elegant irresponsibility.

Last edited by jbgusa; 12-23-2016 at 07:21 AM.. Reason: Add title
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