U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Canada
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 01-15-2018, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
Reputation: 8602

Advertisements

Thinking about this a bit more, I actually have a huge problem with the way the authorities handled this.

I mean, I don't know who made the decision (police? school board?) but since when do we reveal the name and and face in public of young children who are assumed to be victims of violent crime? No one had been arrested when that near-hysterical news conference took place in what looks like the kids' school and so in theory a dangerous suspect who had targeted these kids was still at large.

And now that it turns out to be a hoax, thanks to this you now have the real name and image of an 11-year-old child appearing in ugly and hateful social media posts and memes.

Way to go people!

If I were a cynic (which I might be), I'd say that everyone was just a bit too eager to cloak themselves in the image of super-heroic islamophobia fighters... Sign of the times I guess.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-15-2018, 09:46 PM
 
Location: Alberta, Canada
2,166 posts, read 1,750,098 times
Reputation: 2630
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyyc View Post
I'll just point out that you can't be charged with anything if you're under 12.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
No but if the parents had a hand in this they should be!
This would be much like the "Balloon Boy" hoax of 2009, in Colorado:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balloon_boy_hoax

In that case, the parents were charged and convicted. Not that Colorado precedents would be used here, but if an investigation into this Toronto matter produces evidence of prompting this hoax by the girl's parents, I think charges would be laid in a similar fashion. I believe Acajack's charge of mischief would be correct, but it wouldn't be the usual mischief (CC s. 430, concerning mainly property), but rather the charge of Public Mischief (CC s. 140):

Quote:
140 (1) Every one commits public mischief who, with intent to mislead, causes a peace officer to enter on or continue an investigation by
  • (a) making a false statement that accuses some other person of having committed an offence;
  • (b) doing anything intended to cause some other person to be suspected of having committed an offence that the other person has not committed, or to divert suspicion from himself;
  • (c) reporting that an offence has been committed when it has not been committed; or....
Again, if the parents set this incident up, I can see all of the above charges ensuing. Based on the facts we have now, I don't know what would stick, but it seems to me that one of the above would. Note that I have not done any research into this (or similar) matters specifically, so my remarks right now must necessarily be personal opinion.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-15-2018, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,811 posts, read 4,434,812 times
Reputation: 3257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post

Way to go people!

If I were a cynic (which I might be), I'd say that everyone was just a bit too eager to cloak themselves in the image of super-heroic islamophobia fighters... Sign of the times I guess.
That is why this will be swept under the rug quickly.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-16-2018, 05:30 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
Reputation: 8602
I also believe that parents can be charged or at least have some level of responsiblity with regard to crimes committed by their kids even if they weren't involved at all.

But my sense is that these are fairly exceptional circumstances where actual "harm" to someone has been caused by the crime - in cases of violent crime for example.

In this case if the fictional "Asian man in his 20s" (that's the description of the suspect that was given) had resulted in someone being arrested and his name name public, I guess this might have counted as "harm".

Or even if in the rush of police cars to the scene there had been an accident resulting in bodily harm to someone...

But these cases had they gone forward would have been complicated for sure.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-16-2018, 06:23 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,133,432 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Thinking about this a bit more, I actually have a huge problem with the way the authorities handled this.

I mean, I don't know who made the decision (police? school board?) but since when do we reveal the name and and face in public of young children who are assumed to be victims of violent crime? No one had been arrested when that near-hysterical news conference took place in what looks like the kids' school and so in theory a dangerous suspect who had targeted these kids was still at large.

And now that it turns out to be a hoax, thanks to this you now have the real name and image of an 11-year-old child appearing in ugly and hateful social media posts and memes.

Way to go people!

If I were a cynic (which I might be), I'd say that everyone was just a bit too eager to cloak themselves in the image of super-heroic islamophobia fighters... Sign of the times I guess.
Great points. I think sign of the times though could be because of the perception of a tattered relationship with the Islamic/muslim community, so if there is 'any' opportunity to right a so called wrong than authorities/politicians will pounce on that for political purposes. I'm not saying it is right i'm just volunteering this as a means to explain why they may have jumped the gun with this. Jumping the gun however has its consequences and you highlighted that well in that now these kids actually ARE targets potentially - and that is a big injustice to these kids for some political points that really backfired.

We do need to ask ourselves collectively however - do we give muslims/Islamism a fair shake with our assumptions about them. Or do we just assume well hey - they should be deported because of this. Well if they are CAD citizens how are you going to deport them anymore you could a 8th generation French or Anglo Canadian. While discusting, it is not something we should deport over. If a white kid had his I dunno balaclava cut like this and it was determined to be a hoax, should we say ah well charge him and his parents and deport them. See how we can be quick to make assumptions about them vs other groups. I think we are so in some ways we have a part in creating this mess at a root level.

Last edited by fusion2; 01-16-2018 at 06:33 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-16-2018, 06:30 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,133,432 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post
This would be much like the "Balloon Boy" hoax of 2009, in Colorado:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balloon_boy_hoax

In that case, the parents were charged and convicted. Not that Colorado precedents would be used here, but if an investigation into this Toronto matter produces evidence of prompting this hoax by the girl's parents, I think charges would be laid in a similar fashion. I believe Acajack's charge of mischief would be correct, but it wouldn't be the usual mischief (CC s. 430, concerning mainly property), but rather the charge of Public Mischief (CC s. 140):

Again, if the parents set this incident up, I can see all of the above charges ensuing. Based on the facts we have now, I don't know what would stick, but it seems to me that one of the above would. Note that I have not done any research into this (or similar) matters specifically, so my remarks right now must necessarily be personal opinion.
Interesting stuff Chevy.. Any link the parents had to this there should be charges. Now this has blown up spectacularly in everyone's face - hopefully there will be lessons learned.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-16-2018, 07:03 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
Reputation: 8602
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Great points. I think sign of the times though could be because of the perception of a tattered relationship with the Islamic/muslim community, so if there is 'any' opportunity to right a so called wrong than authorities/politicians will pounce on that for political purposes. I'm not saying it is right i'm just volunteering this as a means to explain why they may have jumped the gun with this. .
But is the relationship really in tatters or is it more that certain people are *saying* the relationship is in tatters?


Let's look at who jumped the gun on this -


The Prime Minister of Canada - is the relationship of the Government of Canada with the Muslim community in tatters?


The Premier of Ontario - is the relationship of the Government of Ontario with the Muslim community in tatters?


Toronto Police - is the relationship between the Toronto Police Service and the Muslim community in tatters?


Toronto School Board - is the relationship between the Toronto School Board and the Muslim community in tatters?


Without being an expert on this my answer to all of these questions is nonethleess probably "no".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-16-2018, 07:08 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
Reputation: 8602
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post

We do need to ask ourselves collectively however - do we give muslims/Islamism a fair shake with our assumptions about them. Or do we just assume well hey - they should be deported because of this. Well if they are CAD citizens how are you going to deport them anymore you could a 8th generation French or Anglo Canadian. While discusting, it is not something we should deport over. If a white kid had his I dunno balaclava cut like this and it was determined to be a hoax, should we say ah well charge him and his parents and deport them. See how we can be quick to make assumptions about them vs other groups. I think we are so in some ways we have a part in creating this mess at a root level.
The main issue I have with the deportation talk is the assumption that because they're different from the majority they're not Canadian citizens.


We *can* deport non-citizens if they are conviceted of crimes, but we cannot and do not deport Canadian citizens of foreign origin even if they are convicted of crimes.


As I mentioned above from the sounds of it (accents...) at the very least the kids and their mother are very likely to be Canadian citizens.


And you would think that under the hypothetical scenario that the parents or a parent had been devious enough to plan this hoax, they'd also be smart enough to know that they're on solid ground (precisely as citizens) and would not face deportation if ever they got caught.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-16-2018, 07:09 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,133,432 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
But is the relationship really in tatters or is it more that certain people are *saying* the relationship is in tatters?


Let's look at who jumped the gun on this -


The Prime Minister of Canada - is the relationship of the Government of Canada with the Muslim community in tatters?


The Premier of Ontario - is the relationship of the Government of Ontario with the Muslim community in tatters?


Toronto Police - is the relationship between the Toronto Police Service and the Muslim community in tatters?


Toronto School Board - is the relationship between the Toronto School Board and the Muslim community in tatters?


Without being an expert on this my answer to all of these questions is nonethleess probably "no".
I'm talking about we Canadians in general. Politicians and institutions will always be politicians and institutions looking out for 'how they look. We the people however can overcome things like assuming because a person looks a certain way or has a certain faith that they are 'less' than. If the answer any Canadian has is well no, I am fair in my judgement and assumptions that is great. Otherwise we should take a second look because we could be cultivating an environment that spurs this type of nonsense.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-16-2018, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
Reputation: 8602
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I'm talking about we Canadians in general. Politicians and institutions will always be politicians and institutions looking out for 'how they look. We the people however can overcome things like assuming because a person looks a certain way or has a certain faith that they are 'less' than. If the answer any Canadian has is well no, I am fair in my judgement and assumptions that is great. Otherwise we should take a second look because we could be cultivating an environment that spurs this type of nonsense.
OTOH certain members of certain groups bring problems onto themselves and that unfortunately and unfairly taints the image of the entire community. Personally I call 'em as I see 'em. I have very good personal relationships with quite a number of Muslim people, but I also recognize that like any other "community" they also have some problem elements that can often create issues that are fairly unique to them.

While any right-minded person will recognize that hate crimes are a scourge on society and much be countered, there seems to be a lot of energy that goes into trying to convince us that islamophobia is by far the most prevalent and problematic form of hate crime.

I know we are just days away from the anniversary of the horrific Quebec City shootings and we all agree that we never want something like that to happen again.

On the other hand it may very well be a one-off by a deranged individual, no matter what some people say about an alleged escalation of islamophobia that supposedly triggered it.

But we've seen other cases like the shooting at the Pauline Marois rally a few years ago that was basically an act of political terrorism by Richard Bain that could easily have been far more deadly had he not bungled his explosives and been more armed and a better shot. And yet the broader issue that could have been seen behind that faded very quickly from the public mind.

Also, Muslims are occasionally (real) victims of hate crimes in Canada, but so are lots of other people.

For example, last year an aboriginal woman in Thunder Bay got a trailer hitch thrown at her from a moving car, and she later died of her injuries. It had all the elements of a hate crime and a tragically fatal one at that. I may be wrong but I don't think Kathleen Wynne or Justin Trudeau tweeted about that, did they?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Canada
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top