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Old 03-25-2018, 08:59 AM
 
18,267 posts, read 10,368,849 times
Reputation: 13325

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Well if you look in this forum alone you got three natives of Ontario who support Alberta here - me, you and BMI who support them. Chevy is Albertan but he is still part Ontarian i'm sure he supports the pipeline. I support B.C here too but within reason. If you simply want to kill the project due to slim risks and you aren't open to any solution than it is hard to support your stance.

Don't dismiss the fact that behind the scenes Federally - things are happening. He (Trudeau) isn't going to say publicly B.C - we'll listen to you but ultimately this thing is going to be built because it falls under Federal jurisdiction so if you don't play ball - we're going to ram this down your throat regardless. That said, do you know this isn't happening behind the scenes? What's going on Bru lol?

I think we are of the same view here and I believe the PMO is as well. He just can't engage himself on this topic like we do on a forum. As for Albertans - they shouldn't feel like an island - they have support and we are a reflection of that.
Of course everything you've written is right on the mark fusion. I'm becoming more the curmudgeon with every passing day with little patience for the "long game" especially as it applies to political machinations.

I'm very cognizant of BC's "special" position and considerations due to that beautiful coastline from a couple or three years of traipsing up and down it hunting. Forcing compliance of pipeline operators to ultra high degrees of regulation and quality assurance is long overdue. Tanker traffic in and out of an inlet should be governed by the highest level of

This is only one part of the equation though as I'm also of the mind an eastern pipeline should run all the way through to a tanker access port in eastern Ontario on the St.Lawrence. The risks to be had with the transport of filthy Bitumen crude should be shared risks with everyone having skin in the game.

No province is going to suffer a dictatorial edict out of Ottawa without any gripe but at some time the welfare of the country as a whole has to assume preeminence.
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Old 03-25-2018, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,685 posts, read 8,747,108 times
Reputation: 7299
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Well if you look in this forum alone you got three natives of Ontario who support Alberta here - me, you and BMI who support them. Chevy is Albertan but he is still part Ontarian i'm sure he supports the pipeline. I support B.C here too but within reason. If you simply want to kill the project due to slim risks and you aren't open to any solution than it is hard to support your stance.

Don't dismiss the fact that behind the scenes Federally - things are happening. He (Trudeau) isn't going to say publicly B.C - we'll listen to you but ultimately this thing is going to be built because it falls under Federal jurisdiction so if you don't play ball - we're going to ram this down your throat regardless. That said, do you know this isn't happening behind the scenes? What's going on Bru lol?

I think we are of the same view here and I believe the PMO is as well. He just can't engage himself on this topic like we do on a forum. As for Albertans - they shouldn't feel like an island - they have support and we are a reflection of that.

It's no accident that the people questioning the pipeline and increased tanker traffic are in BC. Like I said, we get all the risk of losing everything. The ROC doesn't.

Kinder Morgan since the 1960's hasn't gone 4 years without a spill. They've had 5 spills in BC from 2005 to 2012. These are the known dangers.

People talk like all the studies and test done on diluted bitumen and how it acts in a spill are conclusive. They're not.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle37799406/

Last edited by Natnasci; 03-25-2018 at 02:00 PM..
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Old 03-25-2018, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,685 posts, read 8,747,108 times
Reputation: 7299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoisite View Post
A big oil spill on the west coast would be absolutely catastrophic in ways that most people don't comprehend. The entire west coast is subject to Pacific tidal bore twice a day, compounded so forcefully because of the narrow channels created by the thousands of islands and inlets along the west coast from northern Washington all the way up to Alaska. Nearly all of the fresh water rivers and lakes along the length of the coastline are tidal rivers and lakes. That means when the high tide comes in twice a day the tidal bore pushes up into the rivers causing them to back up into the lakes, also carrying ocean debris, driftwood, marine life and human created pollutants and garbage from the ocean into the fresh water rivers and lakes. So not only the ocean front coast line would be effected by a big oil spill, the oil would be swept up into the rivers and lakes too.

The map below shows the minimum tidal water boundaries (green colour) into the rivers and lakes of the lower mainland, but the higher tidal bore pushes beyond the shown low tidal boundaries for another 80 miles further inland to the mouth of the Fraser Canyon at Hope, and into Pitt Lake and Harrison Lake and any other small lakes, rivers and streams that are connected or empty into the ocean. This map shows only the lower mainland, but it is the same situation for all the coastal rivers and lakes along the entire west coast.

British Columbia has thousands of tidal rivers and streams that empty into the ocean and all are subject to Pacific tidal bore which would carry oil (or worse, bitumen) up into the rivers. Twice a day.

Think carefully about the implications of that.

Catastrophic times ten.

Last edited by Natnasci; 03-25-2018 at 01:59 PM..
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Old 03-25-2018, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,685 posts, read 8,747,108 times
Reputation: 7299
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
I completely understand the risk associated with oil spills, but, demand additional precautions, demand higher grade pipe, demand inspection procedures of a kind never before contemplated. Be pro-active in a semblance of consideration for the over-all economy and the benefits it brings to other provinces.

I'm fed up with provincial leadership that behave with no regard to confederation and what that ultimately means to us as a whole. Sit at the table and put your foot down for a pipeline like no other and consult experts in the field to design the cadillac of systems to monitor it. Demand compliance of tanker traffic to the degree that if they find it financially unfeasible to acquiesce .....so be it. At least it's been denied after all avenues of every possible safety and security option have been considered.

Tobacco manufactures were required to put billions into a surety account way back in heyday of production, why not consider something that requires the shareholders to indemnify against risk?

Talk about it, but don't dismiss it out of hand because you just might trigger the break-up of a wonderful country over something that could have been avoided with discussion. Everyone clinging to a tree would feel really stupid if those trees got cut down after Canada has to sell off crown holdings to fund the next round of stupid promises by the very people claiming to have it's best interests at heart.

Albertans at this point must be thinking they're an island in the midst of an ocean of antagonists seemingly not caring if they survive or not.
Isn't that sort of what the Premier of BC is asking and getting crapped on?

There seems to be some serious questions as to the approval process of this and the environmental studies.

Notley just wants us to roll over.

The other issue is Alberta squandered their money. They are desperate and are acting desperate. BC'er's have little sympathy for a province that SHOULD of been rolling in money.
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Old 03-25-2018, 02:12 PM
 
Location: British Columbia ♥ 🍁 ♥
7,227 posts, read 6,575,780 times
Reputation: 14178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
It's no accident that the people questioning the pipeline and increased tanker traffic are in BC. Like I said, we get all the risk of losing everything. The ROC doesn't.

Kinder Morgan since the 1960's hasn't gone 4 years without a spill. They've had 5 spills in BC from 2005 to 2012. These are the known dangers.

People talk like all the studies and test done on diluted bitumen and how it acts in a spill are conclusive. They're not.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle37799406/
A super tanker disaster would destroy BC. Just one spill would mean the destruction of the following industries and resources - fishing, agriculture, forestry, tourism, hydro electric, real estate, coastal fresh water resources, nearly all western wildlife - and the loss of countless human lives.


.
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Old 03-25-2018, 06:55 PM
 
18,267 posts, read 10,368,849 times
Reputation: 13325
Well, you're certainly giving me pause with the provided information above.

This is serious stuff because if the people of B.C., among some others, are firmly entrenched against ANY pipeline regardless, then I foresee a collision coming and it won't be pretty.

Educating the ROC of the possible risks and consequences would seem paramount, but we're not getting that message as clearly as we should be and in a quantity so as to make it impossible to ignore.

You need people to understand and sympathize wholesale across the country so as to prevent the confrontation that will leave two diametrically opposed sides glaring at each other. Just one more step towards Canada splintering.
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Old 03-25-2018, 07:57 PM
 
Location: British Columbia ♥ 🍁 ♥
7,227 posts, read 6,575,780 times
Reputation: 14178
Bru, in an earlier post you mentioned the First Nations involvement in protests. One of the reasons they are so involved is because SO many, hundreds and hundreds of them, live in villages right on the coast by the water and their entire livelihoods and way of life depends on the sea. If a super tanker flounders, spills, sinks, whatever - all of those people lose not only their livelihoods, their way of subsistence, they would also lose their homes and villages because a spill in the ocean would force them to be displaced away from the coast. BC natives are doing their best to be self-sufficient and earn an honest living and if they lose everything and are displaced because of a spill then they would truly be completely dependent on government.

The natives aren't the only people who live on the coast and risk being displaced and dispossessed. There are more cities, towns and villages right on the coast than there are anywhere else in the province. If a supertanker spills bitumen it won't only be the native villages that would become displaced, it would be all of those other towns too. Not to mention the debilitating health problems and loss of lives that would occur from being in the vicinity of a spill.

Bitumen is more toxic than any other petroleum product because of the benzene, toluene, hexane and other industrial thinners mixed into it to dilute it so it will flow through pipelines. It's not possible to breathe the air near a spill without being overcome by the vapours, and the vapours are blinding. If you get it on your skin it raises blisters or worse. Nothing living nearby and no industry can recover from such a catastrophic event if we have an ocean spill. And nothing can guarantee that it won't happen, and only one happenstance will be enough to destroy the west coast.

Alberta wants all of BC, 5 million people plus all of the provinces' rich resources, to willingly walk into a potential gas oven and then sit there and wait for somebody to light a match so the whole province can go BOOM, GONE! And nobody else seems to understand the consequences or to give a damn about the fact that BC contributes to the economy of the rest of Canada too and if all of that contribution comes to a complete halt because of a single big spill it can be devastating for the entire country. One spill is all it will take.

And now Notley is making good on her March 8th threat that if BC doesn't knuckle under to Alberta's demands then Alberta will decrease or completely cut off the amount of Alberta refined oil and gasoline that BC needs for itself. They've already started on that and BC now has the very highest gasoline prices in all of Canada.

This is all one big FUBAR'ed mess. Just sickening. I'm starting to wish that all of Alberta's tar sands region would catch on fire with the next big forest fire that happens there and it can all go BOOM so Alberta wouldn't have to worry about how to get rid of their damned filthy toxic garbage sludge that nobody but China wants so that China can make more plastic waste for Asian countries and cruise ships to throw away into the ocean.

.
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Old 03-25-2018, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,135,736 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Of course everything you've written is right on the mark fusion. I'm becoming more the curmudgeon with every passing day with little patience for the "long game" especially as it applies to political machinations.

I'm very cognizant of BC's "special" position and considerations due to that beautiful coastline from a couple or three years of traipsing up and down it hunting. Forcing compliance of pipeline operators to ultra high degrees of regulation and quality assurance is long overdue. Tanker traffic in and out of an inlet should be governed by the highest level of

This is only one part of the equation though as I'm also of the mind an eastern pipeline should run all the way through to a tanker access port in eastern Ontario on the St.Lawrence. The risks to be had with the transport of filthy Bitumen crude should be shared risks with everyone having skin in the game.

No province is going to suffer a dictatorial edict out of Ottawa without any gripe but at some time the welfare of the country as a whole has to assume preeminence.
Yeah I mean I also think an eastern pipeline should be done. The fact it wasn't has created an imbalance in and of itself. I'd support it through Ontario - you know team player and all. I tend to look at things more from a centralized viewpoint. For me its Canada first, Province second, City third. I get that some people aren't like that but that is how I am. If matters of Federal domain are derailed by a Province - than I really question the necessity of our nation. Where does it end so to speak.

Last edited by fusion2; 03-25-2018 at 10:15 PM..
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Old 03-25-2018, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,135,736 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
It's no accident that the people questioning the pipeline and increased tanker traffic are in BC. Like I said, we get all the risk of losing everything. The ROC doesn't.

Kinder Morgan since the 1960's hasn't gone 4 years without a spill. They've had 5 spills in BC from 2005 to 2012. These are the known dangers.

People talk like all the studies and test done on diluted bitumen and how it acts in a spill are conclusive. They're not.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle37799406/
I disagree with the notion that B.C takes all the risk and the R.O.C loses nothing. If an environmental catastrophe happened, which could theoretically happen now as there is already a pipeline transporting Bitumen to the coast to Burnaby refineries/terminals right now, Canada would be impacted. Just as if nothing happens, all of Canada benefits economically including B.C. Of course B.C would bear the brunt but we would all be impacted. We have to get our mind out of these silo's whereby we aren't connected, if we don't than maybe we have no business being connected. I think the question I had before to anyone from B.C is - is there anything that can be done that would satisfy the Province. If not than i'm afraid it will get nasty. From what I've seen from Protesters and from posts in here it is an unequivocal NO.

Has there been any traction in improving the processes in place to minimize/mitigate impact with this new pipeline. What if the pipeline has better environmental protections than the existing one? What if technology can be used to manage increased tanker traffic through the Burrard Straight.

This project from what I know is under Federal jurisdiction. If it is successfully derailed than I agree with Bru -it'll be a blow to our Federation and i'm afraid the notion of a Canada where there is any centralized C & C over what goes on from a national perspective for items that are of national domain will be severely diminished. We'll just be a collection of Provinces where decentralized power trumps everything. I won't have a lot of faith in our future as a nation if that happens.

Last edited by fusion2; 03-25-2018 at 10:18 PM..
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Old 03-25-2018, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,135,736 times
Reputation: 3738
An interesting video on this by Maclean's. Done so in an objective fashion imo.

The Kinder Morgan pipeline debate, explained - Macleans.ca
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