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Old 09-14-2018, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Hougary, Texberta
8,602 posts, read 11,098,771 times
Reputation: 10316

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Probably not worth it's own thread, but in light of the Letter from the Members of the Order of Canada from the lower mainland, some perspective may be needed. While Canada makes every effort to gut their (our) own economy with the approval and subsequent denial of pipelines that bring prosperity to the entire country, here's how little it matters.


Cheeto vonTinyhands' recent change to the fuel economy standards for passenger vehicles will result in increased emissions equivalent to the entire GHG output of Canada. Not the oil industry, not transportation, the entire country. If you wiped the country off the map, that's the change by tweaking fuel consumption in cars in the US. So when everyone is pearl clutching about climate change, and sacrificing their wallets, their lifestyle, and neutering the economy to do it, remember what difference it makes. None. It's less than a drop in the bucket. Now, I'm not saying nothing should be done, but what I am saying is taking extraordinary efforts while not getting the US, China and India on board accomplishes nothing either way. Canada could double output and it doesn't matter significantly. So remember while you're paying double for fuel and heating, and airfare and everything else, you're doing so for zero benefit other than the ability to be self-righteous and able to look down on Americans, which has it's own value.
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Old 09-14-2018, 10:53 AM
 
18,327 posts, read 10,403,726 times
Reputation: 13391
I am with you 100% on this.

I have for some time now wondered about our capacity for patience when considering native objections to pipelines when they do not have to worry about their livelihood with that guaranteed for as long as taxpayers can still fund them.

I have also wondered about the greenies who go overboard with demanding that the planet remain pristine at the expense of the economy that funds all those things they take for granted like single payer healthcare.

Where do they think all this largesse comes from?

I understand and commiserate with Coastal inhabitants who do not want their coast lines affected in any way negatively but...……….after performing all due diligence and environmental studies up the ying-yang, wouldn't it seem reasonable to ask them to provide alternate suggestions to add to the safety of pipelines rather than simply "no pipelines"?

Standing in the way of something that has an inevitable impact upon one province in particular's economic well being and opportunity to advantage a natural resource while at the same time dumping your sewage into the ocean and chopping down trees to occasion the profits from those seems somewhat hypocritical to me. At what point does someone's favourite environmental concern have the right to govern someone else's ability to make a living.

This country has just so many opportunities to expand using all that is available and expand it must if it is to maintain it's ability to continue providing all those things people seem to cherish as part of the Canadian identity.
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Old 09-14-2018, 04:32 PM
BMI
 
Location: Ontario
7,266 posts, read 4,521,819 times
Reputation: 5631
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
I am with you 100% on this.

I have for some time now wondered about our capacity for patience when considering native objections to pipelines when they do not have to worry about their livelihood with that guaranteed for as long as taxpayers can still fund them.

I have also wondered about the greenies who go overboard with demanding that the planet remain pristine at the expense of the economy that funds all those things they take for granted like single payer healthcare.

Where do they think all this largesse comes from?

I understand and commiserate with Coastal inhabitants who do not want their coast lines affected in any way negatively but...……….after performing all due diligence and environmental studies up the ying-yang, wouldn't it seem reasonable to ask them to provide alternate suggestions to add to the safety of pipelines rather than simply "no pipelines"?

Standing in the way of something that has an inevitable impact upon one province in particular's economic well being and opportunity to advantage a natural resource while at the same time dumping your sewage into the ocean and chopping down trees to occasion the profits from those seems somewhat hypocritical to me. At what point does someone's favourite environmental concern have the right to govern someone else's ability to make a living.

This country has just so many opportunities to expand using all that is available and expand it must if it is to maintain it's ability to continue providing all those things people seem to cherish as part of the Canadian identity.
Yes, some people seem to think that money grow on trees....maybe in BC it does ...
they have a lot of trees

Also, I want to point out not all First Nations along the pipeline route are anti-pipeline,
a fair number are actually for it.
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:05 PM
 
18,327 posts, read 10,403,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMI View Post
Yes, some people seem to think that money grow on trees....maybe in BC it does ...
they have a lot of trees

Also, I want to point out not all First Nations along the pipeline route are anti-pipeline,
a fair number are actually for it.
I wish they'd talk to the rest of them.
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Old 09-14-2018, 08:14 PM
BMI
 
Location: Ontario
7,266 posts, read 4,521,819 times
Reputation: 5631
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
I wish they'd talk to the rest of them.
Same here.

The pipeline has been operation more 60 years already...time to quit stalling
and move the needle on Canada’s GDP
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Old 09-15-2018, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,703 posts, read 8,778,861 times
Reputation: 7319
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMI View Post
Same here.

The pipeline has been operation more 60 years already...time to quit stalling
and move the needle on Canada’s GDP
I've said this before, but it's really NOT just the pipeline that concerns us in BC. It's the increased tanker traffic off our coast.

Also, having been through a fuel spill in English Bay, minor in comparison to an oil spill, I can't imagine the devastation that an oil spill would cause. A small fuel spill, made our local beaches unusable even for walking for a couple weeks. Plus the smell of fuel hung in the air for a while as well. It was depressing. Its was a wake up call for many here.

Add into this, the conflicting science on whether bitumen in water can be cleaned up, at all.

Kinder Morgan had a video recreation of the water route the tankers would take. It was widely shared and on their site I believe. It was a lie. It was a simple map which did not take into account the intricacies of the waterway at all. Nor did it include the myriad of other marine traffic such as BC Ferries, pleasure craft, the Seabus, Seaplanes landing etc. They made it look all so simple. Why? To mitigate concerns, especially to those who do not know the area well.

Tanker traffic will increase SEVEN fold.

Something tells me, that this would be a no go, if this were Toronto risking it's economy and environment. Again, I've said this before, but imagine if Toronto lost use of all of it's shoreline, Ravine and other Parks destroyed, cottage country gone ( the equivalent to our Gulf Islands, parts of Vancouver Island and Sunshine Coast),

If this happened in Vancouver and area, our fishing, our tourism, and other industries would be ruined. It's just NOT worth it to us.

This video is rather dull and slow, but it explains the issue.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aSbn7Y9kYI
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Old 09-15-2018, 03:08 PM
 
Location: British Columbia ☀️ ♥ 🍁 ♥ ☀️
7,281 posts, read 6,607,347 times
Reputation: 14326
Good post Nat, but I get the distinct impression that people who don't live in BC don't want to know the truth about that kind of stuff and they don't give a damn about BC. If there's no risk to their own back yards and waterways and to their own personal livelihoods then why would they care?



Last edited by Zoisite; 09-15-2018 at 03:23 PM..
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Old 09-15-2018, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,703 posts, read 8,778,861 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoisite View Post
Good post Nat, but I get the distinct impression that people who don't live in BC don't want to know the truth about that kind of stuff and they don't give a damn about BC. If there's no risk to their own back yards and personal livelihoods then why would they care?


Thanks.

I think for the people I know here on CD, like BruSan, it's not that they don't care. They just have a different view on the risks? I'm sure BruSan will let us know LOL

Other people in Canada, aren't as invested in our coast, when they should be and are most likely unaware of the jigsaw puzzle of islands and inlets ships pass through to get to open ocean. Let alone, these tankers passing right by peoples homes.
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Old 09-15-2018, 03:58 PM
 
18,327 posts, read 10,403,726 times
Reputation: 13391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
Thanks.

I think for the people I know here on CD, like BruSan, it's not that they don't care. They just have a different view on the risks? I'm sure BruSan will let us know LOL

Other people in Canada, aren't as invested in our coast, when they should be and are most likely unaware of the jigsaw puzzle of islands and inlets ships pass through to get to open ocean. Let alone, these tankers passing right by peoples homes.
Exactly this Nat.

Having lived in Esquimalt and later on in Victoria for a few years while out there in the RCN, and having enjoyed perhaps more of that coast then most with my diving experience taking me underwater in many locations along the eastern coast of Van. Island all the way up to Campbell River and having hunted throughout the PNW, I do have an appreciation for that beautiful area.

HOWEVER; having said all of that, I also have the pragmatic outlook towards the country as a whole. It cannot continue it's course of leaving every vista untouched by man to the extent no risk is acceptable.

The engine of Canada's economy for decades upon decades was Ontario and Quebec and no one out west or wherever was overly concerned if factories discharged their waste into nearby lakes or streams as long as those taxpayer dollars kept moving outward from there.

Railroads and their footprint have not been the most environmentally friendly mode of transport with roughly one Chinese worker dying for every mile of track through the Rockies but those tracks went through regardless and everybody west of Manitoba can thank god they did.

No one, not one of us; are in the category of "not caring" about the west coast. I would like to think you will find, as in all things political, varying degrees of concern with the over riding one being that we should take whatever measures are deemed "reasonable" to prevent disaster but....that does not mean NO pipeline.

If there is a better safer mode of getting Alberta's resource to market...let's hear it and discuss it with the understanding this county needs to advantage it's resource rich landscape to thrive. Manufacturing alone will not continue funding all of those things we ALL take for granted.
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Old 09-15-2018, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,703 posts, read 8,778,861 times
Reputation: 7319
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Exactly this Nat.

Having lived in Esquimalt and later on in Victoria for a few years while out there in the RCN, and having enjoyed perhaps more of that coast then most with my diving experience taking me underwater in many locations along the eastern coast of Van. Island all the way up to Campbell River and having hunted throughout the PNW, I do have an appreciation for that beautiful area.

HOWEVER; having said all of that, I also have the pragmatic outlook towards the country as a whole. It cannot continue it's course of leaving every vista untouched by man to the extent no risk is acceptable.

The engine of Canada's economy for decades upon decades was Ontario and Quebec and no one out west or wherever was overly concerned if factories discharged their waste into nearby lakes or streams as long as those taxpayer dollars kept moving outward from there.

Railroads and their footprint have not been the most environmentally friendly mode of transport with roughly one Chinese worker dying for every mile of track through the Rockies but those tracks went through regardless and everybody west of Manitoba can thank god they did.

No one, not one of us; are in the category of "not caring" about the west coast. I would like to think you will find, as in all things political, varying degrees of concern with the over riding one being that we should take whatever measures are deemed "reasonable" to prevent disaster but....that does not mean NO pipeline.

If there is a better safer mode of getting Alberta's resource to market...let's hear it and discuss it with the understanding this county needs to advantage it's resource rich landscape to thrive. Manufacturing alone will not continue funding all of those things we ALL take for granted.
Do you think that you might feel differently if you had retired to a nice beachfront home here on the coast?

IMO it's easier to want to take risks, if they don't directly affect you

Come over to the dark side BruSan...LOL
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