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Old 12-01-2016, 12:38 PM
 
3,164 posts, read 2,093,389 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudReader View Post
Conservatives love touting that map. Yet how it is used is extremely deceptive and it has the same overal look election to election no matter who wins. Looks impressive on the surface though. If you alter it to reflect population, suddenly it looks very different, and then I could say that the Repubs run the risk of becoming the party of the minority. Goes both ways.

I get that rural regions may need a boost in terms of representation not to be drowned out, but the concerns on the other side are valid. In California, one electoral college seat represents 500K citizens, in Wyoming that number is less than 150K. So an individual vote in one part of the country could be worth 1/3 to another. I know that there's a balance to be reached between rural and urban representation, but the numbers look highly slanted.

I'm not a conservative and I do not "love" that map....it is what it is and the EV system is not going anywhere anytime soon.
The Republicans still clings to some absurd antiquated concepts (and they still deny global warming) and the Democrats stupidly lost some of the middle class votes that historically were going for them wish misguided policies about trade and gun control.
As you said, the Democrats needs to regain ground in rural areas and the Republicans need to become more appealing in the big cities (leaning more towards libertarian ideals would get them a lot of the Millenial vote)

Bernie Sanders is a smart common sense politician, listen to this exchange with a gun control activist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgH6nhusfEM



By the way, the country by country map in the 2008 election was quite a bit different...so no, it did not have the "same overall look"


This is when the talk about the "permanent democratic majority" started on major media outlets.....incredible how a such controversial candidate like Trump actually was able to break the 300 EV barrier......not even remotely imaginable up to a year ago....



Last edited by saturno_v; 12-01-2016 at 12:58 PM..
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Old 12-01-2016, 08:34 PM
 
Location: Montreal
192 posts, read 135,545 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
I'm not a conservative and I do not "love" that map....it is what it is and the EV system is not going anywhere anytime soon.
The Republicans still clings to some absurd antiquated concepts (and they still deny global warming) and the Democrats stupidly lost some of the middle class votes that historically were going for them wish misguided policies about trade and gun control.
As you said, the Democrats needs to regain ground in rural areas and the Republicans need to become more appealing in the big cities (leaning more towards libertarian ideals would get them a lot of the Millenial vote)
I am genuinely curious to know why you think millennials would gravitate towards libertarianism. It again seems to be more of a rural vs urban thing. To me, young people in general (more chance of college education) are likely the last age group I expect to embrace libertarianism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
By the way, the country by country map in the 2008 election was quite a bit different...so no, it did not have the "same overall look"
I'll conceded that with the map shaded in terms of concentration. Nevertheless, the counties map is always voting red by a landslide -even in 2008 with an incredibly popular candidate in Obama. The republicans dominating by landmass is nothing new.
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Old 12-01-2016, 11:18 PM
 
3,164 posts, read 2,093,389 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudReader View Post
I am genuinely curious to know why you think millennials would gravitate towards libertarianism. It again seems to be more of a rural vs urban thing. To me, young people in general (more chance of college education) are likely the last age group I expect to embrace libertarianism.
Ron Pal support among millenials was very strong....a lot of young people are attracted by libertarian ideas.



Quote:
The republicans dominating by landmass is nothing new.
Not to that extent.....Hillary Clinton popular vote edge is basically only because of California and New York (California alone gave about 4 million more votes to Trump than Hillary, well over Clinton popular vote margin of victory nationally)....is very lopsided...the EV system is not going away for sure.

The Republicans have an impressive lead in state governorship and political chambers....the Democrats have not been in such bad shape since the 1920s.....not that they appear to have learned their lesson yet with Pelosi leadership confirmation.
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Old 12-02-2016, 07:27 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
5,992 posts, read 7,373,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudReader View Post
No argument from me about that. This election was basically won and lost on those States. The democrats need to figure out how to attract rural voters period. Even places like PA and CO, the population seem very conservative-leaning outside of the cities.
As a life long PA resident, I can say that's quite true. Truly liberal Democrats in PA are mostly found in Pittsburgh and Philly. In the mid sized cities such as Erie, Wilkes Barrie, Allentown, etc there are many democrats as well but they tend to be more moderate who vote that way because of trade issues. Then this year came Trump who went on and on about bad trade deals and won certain counties that have been won by the Democrat for decades such as Erie, Northampton, and Luzerne. In the Democrat's desire to focus on newer voting groups in America, they lost their touch with working class whites at the same time. This election should be a wake up call that you can't rely only on people in New York and California to win an election, you need to broaden support. To show how some mid sized counties with about 300,000 people in PA which are considered more typical manufacturing working class areas voted this year, see below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzern...vania#Politics This country went from +8,000 Obama to +26,000 Trump

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erie_C...t_and_politics Erie went from +19,000 Obama to +2,000 Trump and voted GOP for the first time since 1984.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northa...vania#Politics Northampton went from +6,000 Obama to +6,000 Trump and voted GOP for the first time since 1988.
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Old 12-02-2016, 07:46 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
5,992 posts, read 7,373,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
Ron Pal support among millenials was very strong....a lot of young people are attracted by libertarian ideas.
Eh most are still liberal instead of libertarian I'd say, I feel like the conservative leaning millennials are embracing libertarians instead of the neocons and alt-right however.



Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
Not to that extent.....Hillary Clinton popular vote edge is basically only because of California and New York (California alone gave about 4 million more votes to Trump than Hillary, well over Clinton popular vote margin of victory nationally)....is very lopsided...the EV system is not going away for sure.

The Republicans have an impressive lead in state governorship and political chambers....the Democrats have not been in such bad shape since the 1920s.....not that they appear to have learned their lesson yet with Pelosi leadership confirmation.
And we all know how well that turned out........
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Old 12-02-2016, 01:32 PM
 
3,164 posts, read 2,093,389 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradjl2009 View Post
Eh most are still liberal instead of libertarian I'd say, I feel like the conservative leaning millennials are embracing libertarians instead of the neocons and alt-right however.
Do not confuse Libertarianism with being conservative...lot of people think they are related...they are not...it is easier to make a liberal becoming libertarian than a conservative becoming libertarian.



Quote:

And we all know how well that turned out........

The pendulum will swing again for sure....the Dems will learn and make the necessary adjustments....

Bill Clinton brought the Democrats out of the wilderness of the 1980s...but that particular brand of the Democratic party has reached the end of its useful shelf life.
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Old 12-02-2016, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Montreal
192 posts, read 135,545 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
Ron Pal support among millenials was very strong....a lot of young people are attracted by libertarian ideas.
Doing some quick research (Rand Paul 2016: His (False) Rise and Fall - POLITICO Magazine), it seems that young people gravitate to the part of libertarianism that support drug legalization, reform of government surveillance, lgbt rights. Those are not libertarian only ideals -in fact, they seem highly liberal and would be totally supported by the Bernie Sanders crowd.

It certainly does not (hopefully) sound like the hardcore libertarian taxes are forceful theft by the armed government crowd. I thought you were alluding to that ideology.

From the same article:
Quote:
An April 2015 Yougov Poll shows that only 20 percent of Americans under 30 call themselves libertarian, compared with 15 percent of the population as a whole—a rounding error. Indeed, according to Pew, younger Americans are less likely than older Americans to support cuts to Social Security and Medicare. Two-thirds of millennials oppose raising the eligibility age for Social Security, and two out of three want to raise the Social Security payroll tax.
[...]
no less than 42 percent of millennials also think socialism is preferable to capitalism.
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Old 12-02-2016, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
5,992 posts, read 7,373,005 times
Reputation: 3741
Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
Do not confuse Libertarianism with being conservative...lot of people think they are related...they are not...it is easier to make a liberal becoming libertarian than a conservative becoming libertarian.
I mostly get that idea because it seems like the libertarians I know of and see online overwhelmingly prefer Republican candidates over Democratic ones.
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Old 12-02-2016, 03:16 PM
 
3,164 posts, read 2,093,389 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudReader View Post
Doing some quick research (Rand Paul 2016: His (False) Rise and Fall - POLITICO Magazine), it seems that young people gravitate to the part of libertarianism that support drug legalization, reform of government surveillance, lgbt rights. Those are not libertarian only ideals -in fact, they seem highly liberal and would be totally supported by the Bernie Sanders crowd.

It certainly does not (hopefully) sound like the hardcore libertarian taxes are forceful theft by the armed government crowd. I thought you were alluding to that ideology.

From the same article:
Precisely, this is why is incorrect to consider libertarians and conservatives part of the same ideological strand.

I refer to "pragmatic libertarianism"....meaning basic taxes for the services needed for a functioning society and mainly and most importantly raised through taxes and not inflationary debt.

Give everybody the bases to compete and that's it....... for example, is not the government business to help people buying homes.....
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Old 12-02-2016, 03:18 PM
 
3,164 posts, read 2,093,389 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradjl2009 View Post
I mostly get that idea because it seems like the libertarians I know of and see online overwhelmingly prefer Republican candidates over Democratic ones.
Libertarian support for Republicans is mainly on a case by case basis.

Libertarians could not stand the Bush years, Ron Paul has been bitterly against Trump until the very end.

In 2012 Ron Paul was the only candidate in some polls to get the closest to Obama (if I remember correctly a CNN poll gave him only 2 points disadvantage over Obama, well within the margin of error) and actually in a Rasmussen poll actually did beat Obama....no other GOP candidates did stand any chances against Obama back then. Romney was a losing proposition from the get go.

Last edited by saturno_v; 12-02-2016 at 03:31 PM..
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